Alberta Solar

[buickanddeere]

The whole point is that Nuclear is just about the most expensive option... in Ontario. You cannot debate that. The cost to run those plants and maintain them has nothing to do with the end cost to the consumer.

What ? The only power cheaper per KW is hydro electric . What numbers are you looking at ? Tell us what wind, solar, NG and native hydro electric are being paid at this very moment .

 

[tcartwri]

What ? The only power cheaper per KW is hydro electric . What numbers are you looking at ? Tell us what wind, solar, NG and native hydro electric are being paid at this very moment .

The price they charge per KW has nothing to do with their operating cost. Ontario Hydro downloaded $38B in debt to the tax payor in 1999. That is the equivalent of $52B in todays dollar. We have paid that twice over in interest, and it still sits on the books!

Get out of here with your nonsense.

 

[Egon]

Ask Labrador about excess power and short sighted energy contracts.

I just recall a big boondogle back when Churchill Falls was being built. The details are long gone. It is a place that's a long way from a long way away.

 

[Egon]

Already have that. I don't understand what you believe the current distribution grid is and what this distributed supply is that you keep talking about .

How many supply points you got and where are they? How many levels of transmission? When a major goes down how big an area does it effect?

 

[Egon]

Just looked at sygration this morning. The wholesale price the entire day is zero to sub zero. Yet wind, solar, gas and native hydro electric are being paid full subsidized wholesale price .While Hydro One is paying NY and Michigan to take the power.
Demand is down in the province because the increased electrical rates have driven industry out.
Pay wind, solar, NG and native hydro electric the actual wholesale grid rate and let see what happens.
Where did you and Egon get the idea that the ideal method to make electricity is expensive wind , natural gas and solar . Then have cheaper conventional nuclear and hydro electric backup the green power ?

Where did I ever comment on the costs of different power sources?

I have commented that solar and wind can make a contribution and clearly stated that as in the physical sense. Your replies all just harp on subsidies. Yet at the same time there are surpluses sold at a loss. Somewhere there is bad management. Solar & wind can be on/off line quickly. The grid can source them from numerous points that can be well scattered on the transmission grid. Makes for less power loss and quicker rerouteing as its not high density.

And if you think I think solar and wind can stand alone you have been getting bad slough water for too many years. In the words of Marmaduke "Bilge Water"

It would seem the present managerial system of counting and informing is well suited for obscuring any revelations of money trails.

 

[buickanddeere]

The price they charge per KW has nothing to do with their operating cost. Ontario Hydro downloaded $38B in debt to the tax payor in 1999. That is the equivalent of $52B in todays dollar. We have paid that twice over in interest, and it still sits on the books!

Get out of here with your nonsense.

That so called debt was paid several years ago Was not that high either . It still exists on the power bill as a money grab.
Show us the proof of your numbers. That looks like something the anti nucs at Durham Region Nuclear Awareness cooked up.
Care to remark on the latest report from the auditor general of Ontario?

 

[buickanddeere]

I just recall a big boondogle back when Churchill Falls was being built. The details are long gone. It is a place that's a long way from a long way away.

Quebec stole the Churchill Falls power via blackmail because they transmission lines were over Quebec. The recently installation of undersea power cables to bypass Quebec has changed the power game in eastern Canada.

 

[buickanddeere]

Where did I ever comment on the costs of different power sources?

I have commented that solar and wind can make a contribution and clearly stated that as in the physical sense. Your replies all just harp on subsidies. Yet at the same time there are surpluses sold at a loss. Somewhere there is bad management. Solar & wind can be on/off line quickly. The grid can source them from numerous points that can be well scattered on the transmission grid. Makes for less power loss and quicker rerouteing as its not high density.

And if you think I think solar and wind can stand alone you have been getting bad slough water for too many years. In the words of Marmaduke "Bilge Water"

It would seem the present managerial system of counting and informing is well suited for obscuring any revelations of money trails.

Every operating commercial wind and solar project in the modern world is receiving subsidized rates above the wholesale grid rate paid to nuclear, coal & hydro electric. Once the subsidized contract expires, the "green project" is abandoned.
Are you ok with paying wind 13.5 cents, natural gas 16.5 cents and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents while at the exact same instant conventional generation that is backing up the green power is paid 0 to 4 cents?
If the concept of expensive "clean power" worth driving industry into cheaper China where there are no coal plant emission regulations. Is pollution there acceptable and not here ?
Is this green energy first and foremost no matter the retail price ? Is nuclear and hydro electric not clean enough and cheap enough ?

 

[tcartwri]

That so called debt was paid several years ago Was not that high either . It still exists on the power bill as a money grab.
Show us the proof of your numbers. That looks like something the anti nucs at Durham Region Nuclear Awareness cooked up.
Care to remark on the latest report from the auditor general of Ontario?

Debt Retirement Charge


When the former Ontario Hydro was restructured on April 1, 1999, the OEFC was established with the mandate to manage and retire the former Ontario Hydro's debt and certain other liabilities, totalling $38.1 billion. The $38.1 billion was accumulated to build Ontario's electricity generation and transmission infrastructure that consumers are and have been using.

A portion of the $38.1 billion could be supported by the value of the assets of Ontario Hydro successor companies and other assets; however, the OEFC was left with $19.4 billion in unfunded liabilities (often referred to as stranded debt). The OEFC receives dedicated revenues to service and retire the unfunded liability from a number of sources, including the DRC. All the OEFC revenues are used by OEFC to meet its mandate, which includes servicing and retiring the OEFC's debt and other liabilities. This includes payment of principal amounts as well as interest costs.

 

[Trillium Farm]

Also the cost of repairs as you have to hire big cranes, also the decommissioning cost estimated "today" around $1,500.000 each windmill.
There are farmers around here that have rented land for these monstrosities, did not read the contract that said at the end of it THEY own the mill, it then becomes
their problem to dispose. Windpower works well, particularly on a small scale.

 

[Egon]

Every operating commercial wind and solar project in the modern world is receiving subsidized rates above the wholesale grid rate paid to nuclear, coal & hydro electric. Once the subsidized contract expires, the "green project" is abandoned.
Are you ok with paying wind 13.5 cents, natural gas 16.5 cents and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents while at the exact same instant conventional generation that is backing up the green power is paid 0 to 4 cents?
If the concept of expensive "clean power" worth driving industry into cheaper China where there are no coal plant emission regulations. Is pollution there acceptable and not here ?
Is this green energy first and foremost no matter the retail price ? Is nuclear and hydro electric not clean enough and cheap enough ?

I'm quite sure I'm not privy to the real costs and you are not either although you think you do.

You blather on on costs but seem to neglect what solar and wind can do and how they could contribute.

 

[buickanddeere]

How many supply points you got and where are they? How many levels of transmission? When a major goes down how big an area does it effect?

That would be every generating station and every high voltage distribution line. Dozens and dozen of generators. Thousands of miles of distribution lines. Lines and generators are always down for service somewhere and it make no difference to Joe Public's lights.
I have asked this earlier and received no answer or acknowledgement. Please tell us what and how this distributed power system is and what it does vs what ever we have now. What did this next set of links show ?
There are several other posters who are pretty sharp and have an understanding of this topic. If you won't believe me, then converse with them.
I'm still trying to understand what "paradigm" you are using to evaluate and understand where you are "coming from". We do not seem to understanding each other.
At one time Green Power was a grand idea with good intentions. However unrealistic expectations, political opportunists and corporate greed has left us. Just as Europe before us, with over priced electrical power.

Ontario?s Electricity System
http://www.hydroone.com/RegulatoryA...t A/Tab_6_Sched_1-Transmission_System_Map.pdf

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm quite sure I'm not privy to the real costs and you are not either although you think you do.

You blather on on costs but seem to neglect what solar and wind can do and how they could contribute.

Cost is a matter of public record that anyone can read as this is a publicly owned corporation.

How can wind and solar contribute by pricing increasing the price of electrify? Wind and solar are not free. Nuclear and hydro electric are cheaper.
Do you want wind and solar no matter how much they cost ? Why is it wind and solar first and foremost and all other forms of generation secondary and only to backup the failures of wind and solar ?
What wind does is provide unreliable power when needed on peak and power when not needed off peak.
As over priced as solar is, at least solar usually produces during about 1/3 of the duration of the dawn to dusk peak demand time during the spring, summer and fall.

 

[Egon]

From what I have read the costs are/were greatly influenced by mismanagement. With that in mind the true cost will be well hidden. It might even be therorized that deliberate mismanagement could be of benefit for some. A practice that has been used before. Breakdowns of the hydro and nuclear installation costs would be nice.

You might also note that the original post was about solar heating. There was no electrical power generated. As a new concept there would be design and infrastructure costs. All these come up front. You have not provided any solid figures for return on investment.

 

[buickanddeere]

Debt Retirement Charge


When the former Ontario Hydro was restructured on April 1, 1999, the OEFC was established with the mandate to manage and retire the former Ontario Hydro's debt and certain other liabilities, totalling $38.1 billion. The $38.1 billion was accumulated to build Ontario's electricity generation and transmission infrastructure that consumers are and have been using.

A portion of the $38.1 billion could be supported by the value of the assets of Ontario Hydro successor companies and other assets; however, the OEFC was left with $19.4 billion in unfunded liabilities (often referred to as stranded debt). The OEFC receives dedicated revenues to service and retire the unfunded liability from a number of sources, including the DRC. All the OEFC revenues are used by OEFC to meet its mandate, which includes servicing and retiring the OEFC's debt and other liabilities. This includes payment of principal amounts as well as interest costs.

All paid off those debts from Hydro One and Ontario Generation Combined . 19 billion dollars is about as serious as a home owner with a $1000 on thier credit card.
Have you tallied up all the assets of all the generating stations, transmission lines, transformers, dams , real estate equipment etc?
Ever calculate the daily cash flow for 15-20 thousand Mw a day ?
19 billion was , as it's gone. Was a few cents on the dollar of the actual assets. How many people here are that close to debt free ?

 

[buickanddeere]

From what I have read the costs are/were greatly influenced by mismanagement. With that in mind the true cost will be well hidden. It might even be therorized that deliberate mismanagement could be of benefit for some. A practice that has been used before. Breakdowns of the hydro and nuclear installation costs would be nice.

You might also note that the original post was about solar heating. There was no electrical power generated. As a new concept there would be design and infrastructure costs. All these come up front. You have not provided any solid figures for return on investment.

The exception would be a limited distribution grid with very limited base load generation and limited hydro electric generation that was mostly "run of River". No nuclear base load and no coal or NG base load or load following capacity to generate power at 4-6 cents per KW .
With wholesale grid rates of 25+ cents due to the bulk of generation capacity being $$$ imported diesel fuel operating $$$ reciprocating or $$$ gas turbine prime movers.
Then sure it makes sense to use solar or wind when ever possible to enable shutting down some and throttling back the remainding diesel gensets on standby. Still need a bank of "base load " dirty diesel generation spinning reserve to also provide electrical distribution grid frequency and voltage .
May I ask. What is your area of expertise? What groups,clubs or organizations that you belong to or contribute to? I am trying to understand and relate here.

Have you read Trillium Farm's post ?
Contribute ? Why would anybody want a contribution from wind and solar in Canada or the US ?
Wind is not reliable . Wind operates at 1/3 of nameplate capacity . Wind does not produce Monday through Friday from dawn to 2 hrs after dusk. Wind operates anytime including nights and weekends.
Solar is even more over priced than wind.
Why so certain that power must absolutely have to be generated by wind and solar ? Why? What is wrong with clean power from hydro electric and nuclear which is clean and cheaper ?
If you were a farmer growing corn and only being paid $4.50 a bushel if there is a market for it. Yet your neighbour can sell every kernel of corn he can produce and obtain $12.00 a bushel. How is that possible ?
Figures for return on investment ? I suppose all the $$$ in the decommissioning fund, all the pension funds, all the real estate , all the generating equipment and all the transmission equipment . With no debt unless a capital project is being built of overhauled. Then the debt is paid from the operating budget.
Is there some reason to prefer unreliable power vs reliable power that costs less?

 

[truckdiagnostics]

The exception would be a limited distribution grid with very limited base load generation and limited hydro electric generation that was mostly "run of River". No nuclear base load and no coal or NG base load or load following capacity to generate power at 4-6 cents per KW .
With wholesale grid rates of 25+ cents due to the bulk of generation capacity being $$$ imported diesel fuel operating $$$ reciprocating or $$$ gas turbine prime movers.
Then sure it makes sense to use solar or wind when ever possible to enable shutting down some and throttling back the remainding diesel gensets on standby. Still need a bank of "base load " dirty diesel generation spinning reserve to also provide electrical distribution grid frequency and voltage .
May I ask. What is your area of expertise? What groups,clubs or organizations that you belong to or contribute to? I am trying to understand and relate here.

Have you read Trillium Farm's post ?
Contribute ? Why would anybody want a contribution from wind and solar in Canada or the US ?
Wind is not reliable . Wind operates at 1/3 of nameplate capacity . Wind does not produce Monday through Friday from dawn to 2 hrs after dusk. Wind operates anytime including nights and weekends.
Solar is even more over priced than wind.
Why so certain that power must absolutely have to be generated by wind and solar ? Why? What is wrong with clean power from hydro electric and nuclear which is clean and cheaper ?
If you were a farmer growing corn and only being paid $4.50 a bushel if there is a market for it. Yet your neighbour can sell every kernel of corn he can produce and obtain $12.00 a bushel. How is that possible ?
Figures for return on investment ? I suppose all the $$$ in the decommissioning fund, all the pension funds, all the real estate , all the generating equipment and all the transmission equipment . With no debt unless a capital project is being built of overhauled. Then the debt is paid from the operating budget.
Is there some reason to prefer unreliable power vs reliable power that costs less?

Because costs don't matter we are just supposed to accept it, because wind and solar contribute.

I'm quite sure I'm not privy to the real costs and you are not either although you think you do.

You blather on on costs but seem to neglect what solar and wind can do and how they could contribute.

 

[Egon]

All paid off those debts from Hydro One and Ontario Generation Combined . 19 billion dollars is about as serious as a home owner with a $1000 on thier credit card.
Have you tallied up all the assets of all the generating stations, transmission lines, transformers, dams , real estate equipment etc?
Ever calculate the daily cash flow for 15-20 thousand Mw a day ?
19 billion was , as it's gone. Was a few cents on the dollar of the actual assets. How many people here are that close to debt free ?

Individual debt is irrelevant to energy costs.

What is wind and solar contribution to total power generated percentage wise? Are the cost increases in line with the produced quanity?

Making more sense how much of the increased costs can be equated to wind and solar?

 

[Egon]

May I ask. What is your area of expertise? What groups,clubs or organizations that you belong to or contribute to? I am trying to unde

You surely can ask. You could look up my bio.

But be assured; I'm in a different pair of dimes than yourself.

Though that company flavour of the week term fell into disuse some years ago.

 

[5030]

Sheeesh Egon, in all the years I've been on here, I've never seen you get your bloomers in that tight a wad.....:laughing: Just say'in.