all in one attachment? is it possible?

   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#11  
scratch pad 2.png
see attach image first...

i have the basics of a hyd axial piston motor already. is there a way to use a clutch? and let things rotate as if it was an actual motor?
the issue is not causing the other axis of angle adjustment get completely out of whack by wanting to rotate the blade up/down (like adjust side link on 3pt hitch) to allow rear blade to put crown on road or dig a ditch.

as much as i would like to have things strong enough (create enough pressure / torque / and like) to use this thing to actually pickup rear end of tractor like a backhoe can. i would most likely settle for raising implement up off ground and rotating it. and then in idea locking the rotation in. to some degree as valves return to neutral position. and keep a hyd cylinder from either extending or contracting. it is that "holding" position thing that has me worried.

side note: thinking of calling it the "dog tail" that has a mind of its own!
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#12  
scratch pad 4.png
scratch padding around, in paint. trying to get general ideas down...

===============

scratch pad 5.png
took me a while to figure out a multi function joystick, would most likly be a better option.

a joystick with up/down/left/right pending on direction you moved it, then maybe a twist of handle for a rotation.

perhaps a secondary thumb button, to allow movement of another joint, or a dial selector to switch between different joints.

to using a newer cellphone with touch screen. to control things. this idea kinda went out the window rather quickly....

=================
need to find the limited rotation hyd unit i remember finding last year or so... it might create enough torque to adjust things on the go.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#13  
googing "rotary double vane actuator" i think might fit the bill for the rotation. 45 degrees in each direction, if i place one at 3pt hitch, and another at back end of the tail were rear blades and other attachments would go. 90 degree left to right, if wanted. put on a little roatory sensor for "return to position" or maintain position, to automatically turn hyd on/off to deal with any sort of leakage within the hydraulics. or something way way above my head, and 3D mapping / landscaping software. to auto adjust for crowns placed in dirt/gravel driveways. you drive computer does all the work of adjusting things on rear end. *rolls eyes* i doubt that will happen.

EDIT: i suppose someone could put on a small size bucket from say a backhoe or like. and scoop "dog tail" style stuff up out of the ditch.

this is turning more and more into a "half backhoe" (no dipper stick) geared more for pulling /dragging stuff. hhmsss...

2nd EDIT: then again, might be a way to drag a rotatory cutter, down into a ditch, and then pull it back behind tractor getting around signs / posts etc... along the road way.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
finally ran across something.

could be 3pt hitch compatible / quick attach compatible.
--either replacing 3pt hitch on rear of tractor all together, most likely would need a sub frame like a backhoe.
--or fit between 3pt hitch on rear of tractor and the 3pt hitch implement, may need stay straps/bars/chains.
--single remote set on rear of tractor. or PTO pump setup.
--one electrical connection plug.
--TNT (top n tilt) hyd cylinders would be a waste.

rear blade
--left and right (moving rock/dirt from one side to the other side)
--back/forth (tilting blade edge for different aggressiveness)
--rotate (angling for crown on road / digging ditch)
--extend/contract (over all length longer/shortening) kinda like "extenda hoe" function on a backhoe
--pending on optional extension, offset (swinging out to one side of the tractor)

optional...4 linear sensors and 1 rotational sensor would give...
--return to position, couple extra memory location buttons perhaps.
--float
--down force (example down force kit on PHD (post hole digger) could possibly lift rear wheels of tractor off ground / loose traction if using rear blade/box blade.
--auto maintain position (dealing with leaks in valves and like. "leak down issues with FEL (front end loader))
--dummy lights, for max extension/contraction of hyd cylinders.
--and/or more with gauges that could denote all the current angles

optional...pressure sensors
--"trip" function. hitting side walk, etc... and allowing blade to angle in such a way to prevent damage hopefully, that or trip springs built into the rear blade.
--down force, and adding a little more weight on implement, and removing pressure off of rear tires, most likely would want 4x4 / MFWD tractor. to keep steering and some sort of traction. hopefully front end doesn't come apart.

self leveling, not sure about this. PHD (post hole digger) might be useful on. or getting a certain slope, not sure on sensors for the leveling part.

1 electrical joystick / multi function knob i should say, for... one hand on steering wheel, one hand on joystick, feet doing what ever.
--move left/right to swing left/right
--move up/down to raise up/down
--rotate joystick like a door handle going into house to rotate
--push joystick into itself to contract all hyd cylinders (contracting hyd cylinder on a extenda hoe)
--pull joystick away from its base to extend all hyd cylinders. (extending hyd cylinder on a extenda hoe)

----------
major issues
--is how much it can angle / rotate
--shock loading of the hyd cylinders.
--how many electrical over hyd valves would be needed.
--extra valves to deal with "power beyond" notations. of say hyd motor on a rotatory cutter, or auger on PHD, or using a second one of these things further back behind the tractor.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
below 4 pictures are from.... Octahedral Hexapod Mechanism (Parallel Robot) - STEP / IGES, KeyCreator, Autodesk Inventor, STL, Other - 3D CAD model - GrabCAD
medium.gif

medium.gif

medium.gif

medium.gif


playing around some, and it would seem the need for a "U joint" on cylinder end, to keep hyd hoses coming off the cylinder from getting all wrapped up, and then using a "ball joint" on the piston ends, to give a little bit more fluid motion.

==============
i can achieve up to 90 degree left and right (total of 180 degrees), (backhoe swinging left and right to drop spoils) but things get dicey, near that 90 degree mark, were things might get stuck and un-recoverable to swing back opposite direction. also due to placement of hyd cylinders, everything gets extend so much. (i feel more deflection / bounciness) along with total lift capacity does go down a descent amount. (the old "levers" or kids teeter totter or fulcrum comes into effect)

i can spread the hyd cylinders out (longer legs on Y) and obtain reduce degrees, of left/right, and up/down, but gain some additional rotation, and stronger lifting capacity and less chance of things binding up, if at all. some issues with cylinder end (were piston comes out) and hoses, along with sensors that still could get damaged.


the above leading me to possibly setting up extra holes / mounting options for all the hyd cylinders. spread things out far and wide, vs narrow and close to the center of the Y frames.

===============
i have looked at less than 6 cylinder setups, and more than 6 cylinder setups. and the issue always comes back to "extra play" were things would freely float in rotation mode to some extra degree. other words you have rear blade on tractor and trying to put a 5 degree crown on a gravel driveway. and the blade would rotate for example +/-5 degrees with more or less hyd cylinders. pending on setup possibly upwards of 15 +/- degrees of free play rotation.

it comes back down to a "TRIANGLE" and how the 6 cylinders are placed. that helps remove the play/slop in everything. wider the triangle (further out on the Y frames) the less play/slop there is.
the longer the hyd cylinders and pistons are (including extension / contraction of pistons) the more play/slop there is. the shorter they are the less play/slop there is

what bothers me some, is when all or some of the hyd cylinders are fully contracted. or fully extended, there is some slop/play, and additional shock loading changes

===============
i suppose if someone wanted to. they could swap out the hyd cylinders for rigid bars perhaps top/side link turnbuckles on 3pt hitches. and in playing around, i have (by accident) locked things up like a solid bar. for 1 or 2 hyd cylinders. and was interesting to say the least. it did limit my abilities but also firmed some things up. to point a possibly adding a 7th hyd cylinder or adjustable bar directly into the center of everything. possibly ball joints on each end of the center 7th unit. plan was putting a sensor rod there for rotation already, but... beefer setup *shrugs*, might help reduce "shock stress" on hyd cylinders, when dragging some of the beefer stuff, ((think stay straps, sway chains, and like for 3pt hitch, but for this, it would be the central 7th unit))

if i add the additional "positional" holes to adjust hyd cyilnders, possibly doing some chains as well to act like limiters much like sway chains / check chains do.

============
with above, it should be easy enough, to take a couple Y base frames, and use solid bars or like. and create cheap longer extensions. that could be added to either side of the unit. to either get larger offset (swing off to side of tractor), to higher lift above ground, or digging depth below ground, to setting rear blade further out behind tractor, to create more of a "motor grader" setup. i would imagine, they would act like 3pt hitches on both sides, with quick attach like ability built into them. run a couple hyd hoses, and wiring that would be needed for the electrical over hyd solenoid valves. ready set go....

================
the overall hyd cylinder bore/piston sizes.....
bore size should be able to be smaller with wall thickness a little bit thicker possibly, along with piston size might go up a little bit, much of it is due to odd angles and bending of the hyd cylinders and pistons possibly. vs your ordinary run of the mill hyd cylinder.

the pressure relief valves will need to be set for both hoses coming off the hyd cylinder.

it is looking like there will need to be 6 solenoid valves (1 per each hyd cylinder), with 1 extra for center 7th, and then 1 or 2 more for power beyond doing / rear remotes per say


==============
trying to decided if i want to just strap a rod linear sensor via pipe clamps to each hyd cylinder. or go with independent connections between the 2 Y frames.
i would need a linear sensor per hyd cylinder. due to some motions 4 cylinders are in full contract mode and 1 is barely extended out while another is some were in between fully extended/contracted,
if i go with 3 independent connections between each Y frame, and a rotation sensor via a 7th central unit. i can reduce number of sensors. from 7or8 down to 4 sensors. most likely sensors would be right at the middle / around the 7th unit if not taking the spot of the 7th unit. making it a pain to get into them (removing hyd cylinders to get at them possibly) as in getting into them to deal with trouble shooting, but more importantly to grease / lubricate things. or to adjust limiting stops.

the other issue is wires for the electrical sensors and dealing with the hyd hoses themselves coming from each hyd cylinder. that alone may play a bigger role.

==============
routing the hyd hoses....and placing electrical over hyd valves i guess i need to look more into that.

i know there is options of directly mounting stuff directly onto the hyd cylinders. but once you start moving and adjusting things about. there is not much room and more likely damage to stuff mounted directly to hyd cylinders.

back off to drawing board, to find valves and what i want for them / need from them.

EDIT: and yes, the attached pictures are misleading, once you start combining all the tilting and angling and rotation.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#16  
*arghs* and i thought i had a plan for hyd valves... to deal with "over running load" so the hyd cylinders would better behave with on the go adjustment. along with dealing with "leak down" and dealing with pressure relief... but that is not looking to good. the more complex i get the more of an issue becomes were a single failure could result in major damage...

some V notches in a generic 4 way valve (2 position 2 port valve) with A, B, P, T ports. the V notches allowing kinda of a better needle valve like adjustment, and ability to some what control both pressure and velocity / GPM of the hyd oil better.

going with maybe a slightly longer landings of the spool valve. to perhaps reduce some extra leak down. though it would be nice to go with a smaller diameter spool over all to help reduce leak down a little bit more.

generic 3000PSI max relief pressure unit, on each hyd hose coming from a double acting cylinder.

optional electrical pressure gauge for feed back info. on each hyd hose coming from a double acting cylinder.

each hyd cylinder getting its own linear sensor. and then a rotational sensor in the middle of the 6 hyd cylinders.

=======
generic proportional valves is what it looks like what i will be needing...
though thinking of going with a lower GPM setup and in that small inner diameter parts. for a slow / responsive setup. vs a larger setup that might be more sloppy with just a little bit of wear and tear. small internals should not be an issue more so if all 6 hyd cylinders are being adjusted all at same time. the extra back pressure in system, i would like to think would give a better over all response. of equal adjustment of hyd cylinders vs one or 2 hyd cylinders taking full action, before other hyd cylinders began to move. *arghs* the heat would eat things up.

the solenoids of proportional valve.... has me some what worried, to point of thinking about possibly using an adjustable screw / rotational solenoid to obtain linear action. vs a straight rod with some magnets on it. that gets adjusted back and forth.

============
the physical hyd hoses that connect valves to hyd cylinders, has me worried with "min bend radius" along with twisting of the hyd hoses. tempted to use a small diameter hyd hose. for small bend radius, and less of a clutter mess of hoses catching up on each other. granted heat from friction would come up slamming the hoses to cause hyd cylinders to move faster.

=============
the more i look at it, the more things fall to were... all the valves end up in a series vs being in a parallel setup.
pump -> P valve 1 -> T valve 1 -> P valve 2 -> T valve 2 -> etc.. etc... and finally getting to T (tank)
i was hoping to avoid this to get away from all the extra friction / back pressure that would come from it. but... hmmsss...

thinking about it... perhaps doing a combo setup...
pump -> (P valve 1&2) -> (T valve 1&2) -> (P valve 3&4) -> (T valve 3&4) -> (P valve 5&6) -> (T valve 5&6) -> tank
i suppose that would give me an actual parallel setup... but being able to place the valves at different locations. *shakes head no* to easy for an over running load to happen.

i suppose all valves are in series could still allow everything to happen in parallel, if valves are only partially opened. it just means quick fast constant adjustment of the solenoids to adjust the valves till operator lets going of the joystick.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#17  
on a different note, i came across an interesting cover. for the rod/piston end of a hyd cylinder

cloth with velcro, 2 pipe clamps.

wrap cloth around piston and let velcro stick to itself. then a pipe clamp on cylinder, and then pipe clamp on end of piston. to make in idea a "rubber boot" that you may find on various levers/joysticks. but more geared for hyd cyilnders. to keep dust/dirt/ice/snow/etc... from getting back into the piston seal of the hyd cylinder.
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#18  
my brain getting overloaded, and need to start looking at the actual coding / programming. to actually get things to work it seems. vs twiddling my thumbs.

should be interesting challenge, how do you work out a 6 hyd cylinder parallel robot. to joystick/s...

an attempt to spreed sheet out variables

===============
dog tail worksheet.png

drawing out and labeling, going to go with 6 linear / rod sensors on each of the main 6 hyd cylinders. KISS (keep it simply stupid) everything gets duplicated. 6 times.

================
6 proportional valves... each with 2 solenoids = 6*2 = 12
6 hyd cylinders each with 1 linear rod sensor = 6* 1 = 6
6 hyd cylinders, each hyd hose has a pressure relief with optional electrical feed back = 6* 2 = 12
--------------
12 + 6 + 12 = 30 connections

or rather 5 wires plus ground per each hyd cylinder. thinking placing all circuitry back to circuit board / computer chip. vs dealing with various mini circuits at each solenoid / sensor / feed back.

================
game pad D button (multi function)
dog tail game pad.png
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#19  
trying to rough out things (guess things out) of when D pad on joystick is pressed, and what is extends/contracts and how much (percentage) the vale is open for given hyd cylinder.
dog tail game pad2.png

swing left (9 oclock) (move D pad button left)
2 = 100% extend
1 = 80% extend
3 = 5% extend
4 = 5% contract
6 = 80% contract
5 = 100% contract

swing right (3 oclock) (move D pad button right)
5 = 100% extend
6 = 80% extend
4 = 5% extend
3 = 5% contract
1 = 80% contract
2 = 100% contract

swing up (12 oclock) (move D pad button up)
1 = 100% contract
5 = 100% contract
2 = 80% contract
5 = 80% contract
3 = 100% extend
4 = 100% extend

swing down (6 oclock) (move D pad button down)
1 = 100% extend
5 = 100% extend
2 = 80% extend
5 = 80% extend
3 = 100% contract
4 = 100% contract

rotate left (counter clock wise) (twist D pad button counter clock wise)
1 = 100% extend
3 = 100% extend
5 = 100% extend
2 = 100% contract
4 = 100% contract
6 = 100% contract

rotate right (clock wise) (twist D pad button clock wise)
1 = 100% contract
3 = 100% contract
5 = 100% contract
2 = 100% extend
4 = 100% extend
6 = 100% extend

contract all cylinders (push D pad button down)
1-6 = 100% contract

extend all cylinders (pull D pad button up)
1-6 = 100% extend

====================
looks like i need to go back to school and break out some grid paper *arghs*
 
   / all in one attachment? is it possible?
  • Thread Starter
#20  
earlier attempt at grid paper...
dog tail game pad3.png

=============
tempted to just have a miniture parral robot turned into a joystick

dog tail game pad4.png

slap a "door knob" on top of it,
swap out hyd cylinders for linear sensors with some springs. for return to neutral position
toss a central 7th linear sensor/spring into the very middle of it.

and have direct control over it all. with no calculations or anything. person could look at joystick and then look back behind tractor, and say OH, exact same thing.

off to look at linear sensors more. hopefully some R/C (remote control) stuff has something small enough i might be able to mix and match stuff together.
 
 

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