All Things Livestock...

[texasjohn]

I'll give it a shot... my opinion based on observations.. your opinions may vary

There is only so much weight and size that an animal CAN express.
This expression occurs IF the animal is never stressed its entire life and ALWAYS has an optimum diet, etc. This is about the situation you are describing as related to the breeder who goes for the show ring and feeds grain lavishly. His animals will grow to their maximum ability in a minimum time.

To see this idea at work in another arena, check out your typical human family. Line 3 generations of males up. Grandpa will be the shortest. Paw will be taller than him. And, a 19+ yr old son will be the tallest of the group. Likely, same thing with the ladies. Think about it... in my case, Dad grew up literally walking behind a walking plow and his family ate popcorn one year because that was all there was to eat. Air conditioning and referigerators didn't exist for during his growth years and he had the resuilting stresses. He's the shortest. I am about 2 inches taller than him...born in WWII and I never recall being hungry, and I had vitimans growing up. Both my boys are 2 to 4 inches taller than I am... products of more enlightened dietary understanding, climate control and plenty of food and snacks at all times. I submit to you that the genetics are not ALL THAT different in the 3 human generations... but the DIET and environmental stressors are.

There is a high, but not perfect, correlation between an animal's ability to gain weight on grass versus grain. However, at every age point the grass fed animal will lag behind a grain fed animal.. on actual frame size and actual weight gain. The grass fed animal MAY be the most cost effective because it is likely that the cost of grass is less than the cost of grain, thus, the cost per lb gain can give the nod to raising animals on grass. However, time is a cost factor too.... so that can play into the equation.

Net.. your grass fed critters will NEVER look like their grain fed moms and dads... either in size or fat covering or whatever, they will be smaller... it's just not possible to achieve the optimum mix of protein, etc. from forage, as a practical matter, 24/7/365.

I love your mounted critter!

Hope your young bull works out for you... such a long time to find out... buy young bull, grow him out.. test his fertility, breed him..make sure he's interested in females, wait for a gestation period, see calves... grow them out to weaning... then on to yearlings, then breed heifers and find out their level of fertility, calving ease, etc... Takes about 5 years to prove a bull, I think.

 

[Spiveyman]

That all makes sense. Great observations, I refer to those as wisdom once you've made enough of them, and you obviously have. I do really appreciate your thoughts on these matters.

We are OK with the time factor as we basically set a window, 20 - 30 months for slaughter. If the animal is ready in 12 months we're not going to kill them anyway. We also figured on the smaller weights and leaner meat AND lower costs of raising. We are too new to have really flushed out the cost/revenue side of grain feeding Vs. grass, but our marketing strategy is based around "natural" production of cattle. We'll see how all of that works out.

That young bull crawled under the fence last night at my partner's farm. Low spot, easy to cross, and NO grass left on his place. When he went over there tonight the bull crawled back under the fence. No major trauma, but I'm sure hoping the feller was just really hungry and not showing his stripes. He's been a great bull calf so far (as far as one can be at this stage). My partner doesn't have the time to work with them. I'm limited also but will be more deliberate at training them. We're moving one load Thursday night to try out our system.

I decided to abandon the gate panel idea, since I have a perfectly good barn right there. We set it up tonight to be able to unload about 5 at a time into the barn and then be able to cut them as we go, 3 seperate areas if we need, and a pair of gate panels to crowd them, if we need, right into the Dube chute. I feel pretty good about it. I didn't get any pictures because I forgot my camera, but will try to get some Thursday night and of course Sat. It'll be good to get the herd out on some better grass and more land.

I also went back and read through your electric fence stuff. I'm going to be going that rout to protect a pond in another field if we wind up having to graze them there anytime over the winter. I'll probably also use that to section the fields next year for rotational grazing. I figure that's the best way to manage it, cost effective and not permanent so we can change it as we learn. Once I start getting hardware I'll probably have some questions, but one thing at a time for now.

 

[texasjohn]

When you get serious about electric fencing...BEFORE you purchase wire or equipment, I offer to talk to you via phone... maybe some weekend/night when rates are cheap/free.... so much to tell, takes so long to type it all out. I think I can save you some headaches! It'll solve your roving bull problem.

 

[Spiveyman]

That would be great! I have Vonage at home so no long distance fees for me. I would really appreciate that.

I stopped by TSC today to check out their systems. They have a solar powered deal that puts out a little over 4,000 V in a 1 mile fence. They (the literature that is) recommended 3KV - 4KV for turning a bull and 4 strands. They had poly woven wires and plain metal wires that were recommended for that system and T posts... etc. Once we get all the critters to my land I'll start figuring on a layout for the fencing that I'll want to do. Just want to keep them out of a pond and section of woods when we let them graze the back section, and want to rotate probably starting in the spring for best usage of the grass we have.

In the mean time, I think we have everything we need for working the cattle except the nose pliers. TSC didn't carry them. I'll try to get some pics when we get rolling. Should be a hoot for us to figure this out on the fly.

 

[texasjohn]

Fencing materials
use only charger qualified for 100 or more miles
use only 21.5 gauge high tensile wires
use only black insulators on T posts
use wrap around black insulators
use ceramic donut insulators at corners
get a bunch of insulated high tensile wire for underground, elsewhere
get a bunch of switches... you will use them often
use FEL to drive t posts in ground
use a rachet on EVERY fence wire segment
no need for springs to maintain tension
if you are able to find lots of fiberglas sucker rod, buy it rather than Tposts

VONNAGE me when you are ready.

get a pair of nose pliars from somewhere... wouldn't work cattle without them!

 

[weldingisfun]

Texasjohn, what are the black insulators you recommend for use on t posts? I've never seen any and I'm getting ready to string some more electric. Have you got a picture and where do you get them?
I'm not far from you and have ready access to both TSC and American Fence and Supply but haven't seen any thing like that on their shelves.

 

[Spiveyman]

Howdy weldingisfun, welcome to the Cattle thread. It's kind of been a 3-man show so far.

For everyone else (texasjohn and EasyEd ) the results are in on that jumpy cow. Not a dark cutter. The meat actually turned out pretty decent except the butcher's saw was too dull and they got off the spine so one whole side of ribeye's are screwed up. And, they must have dropped one side or ran over it with a fork truck or something, the pelvis was crushed and the meat was badly bruised on that side so there was lots of waste. Kind of a bummer, but now our butcher owes us big time.

Another interesting aside... I guess you should always be leary of a "good deal." When we bought that lot of cows that included Jupmy we were actually saving up to buy some really nice registered heifers. This deal presented itself at a decent price, 4 cows/4 heifers (5 of them bred) and a good little bull calf. That seemed like more bang for our buck, so we pulled the trigger. (foreshadowing) My business partner was talking to a lady yesterday, she said she had a neighbor who used to have longhorns and one of those cows was always jumping the fence into her field. Turns out she was the neighbor of the guy we bought them from! Ole' Jumpy had a history - not surprising - but I bet that's one of the reasons that guy was ready to sell. He was about 85 and had bad knees, so he said, and he probably did from having to chase the cow all over creation. The rest of them seem to be very well behaved, the 5 all dropped great looking calves, and all are now covered. We'll come out OK on the deal, but will be more discriminating on future purchases.

 

[Spiveyman]

We started moving the herd last night. Everything worked perfectly! We had a handfull of volunteers, 4 bull calves about 600 lbs and a heifer about 800 lbs walked right up on the trailer. This was perfect for us to try out our make-shift system at my barn. We didn't get out there until almost dark so I only got a couple of pictures and once we started moving animals it was all business. This is the first time we've worked the herd so we were very focussed on learning what we were doing and not getting hurt. I'll get more pics Saturday when we bring the rest of them out.

So here's a stitched shot of the back of the barn. I'm standing in the pen where we turned them out, there's another on the left and right that are all fenced in. We used my carry all as a working table for all the stuff. The Dube also has a little table that folds out, but it's not up in this picture.



We unloaded them in the front and had a zig zag kind of pattern for them to follow, straight out of the trailer, then right turn, then left turn. That thing about cattle always wanting to go back to where they've been... not sure if that's what helped here, but every one of them walked off the trailer and followed the path with little to no pressure by us. They all walked right into the Dube, again with little to no pressure from us, we closed the back ratcheting gate, squeezed them up, and got to work.

Here's a closer view (the left side of the stiched picture) so you can see the set up better. Not sure why photobucket shrinks the pictures so much.



I didn't get any shots of us branding the cattle (will try on Sat) but here's a shot before we got started of the heater with our branding irons in it:


We tagged their ears, gave them worming meds (Ivomac), and some vaccines (7 way/9 way : calves/cows - I think), we banded the bull calves with a Calicrate bander. That was awesome. I've helped my papaw and my uncle castrate before with a pocket knife, this is for sure the way to go. Those calves that were cut seemed so stressed out, but these guys, when we cranked those bands tight, they never seemed to even notice. No kicks (though we did tie their hind legs for safety sake), but there was no acknowledgement of us even being back there. Not what I expected. One even messed up and didn't crimp on the band right so we had to re-do it, that guy still didn't act like he cared. I'll be watching them over the next few days, they should drop and it's not supposed to stop the weight gain the way cutting can do. Lasty we branded them, holding brand only. We didn't do the PH numbers since these aren't being registered. Smeared the brand with Vasciline and turned them out. We had some grain for them in a bunk feeder in that lot, but most of them seemed to like the grass. Guess they read our brochure where we call them grass fed! Once we got the 5 of them through, we opened up the gate to the main pasture and that heifer led the bull calves right out in to the pasture to meet the cows that are already out there.

Could not have gone better as far as I'm concerned. One of the brands didn't turn out so well (my first one) but you have to learn somehow. We're excited about tomorrow. We'll start about 5 am. Not so crazy about that. I'll try to get some better shots of animals in the Dube, the banding action, and the branding. Thanks for all of the advice so far, I know that helped us have such positive results. Cooperative cattle helped too.

 

[texasjohn]

well.. I got my black plastic insulators at Tractor Supply... in Georgetown. Haven't looked at their stock lately.

I've used red, yellow, black.... for over 20 years... observation says that the black ones hold up MUCH better to the elements than the others. Red is worst.. yellow better, black best. I don't know why.

American Fence and Supply, my opinion, is ALWAYS overpriced.
Drop by some time (call first, PM me and I'll send you my mobile phone #) and I'll show you what I do and use...

Agreed, sometimes all you can find is another color and you have to go with that... no picture, sorry.... too busy to get one now... lots of family responsibilities at present.

Spiveyman... I CANNOT imagine what happened to crush the cow's pelvis... there is no exchuse... somehow, there is a SERIOUS novice on the cutting floor. Same for messing up ribeye...

Spiveyman... I determined that I can raise better animals than I can buy. Try as I might and selecting the very best animals I could my experience over time... and numerous outside purchases.... when I would look back on a purchase group made 3-4 years prior, the results were:

one third were GREAT cows and stayed with me a very long time

one third were kinda OK, but nothing to brag about and falling short in my opinion on one or more of the 6 essentials... thus at the bottom of my herd ranking and on the block as soon as some other animal proved themselves to be better.

one third were already gone having flunked one or more of my 6 essentials criteria

Total $ didn't seem to matter, selecting from known and reputable and honest breeders versus unknown breeders didn't seem to matter, purchasing at sales or on the ranch didn't seem to matter, using my own eye only or selecting only from previously viewed and approved animals (purebred sales) didn's seem to matter.

Net.. give it up... until you are raising and retaining your own heifers (expensive business) you will experience the one third, one third, one third results I did.... unless you have extremely good luck or have substantially more lenient retention criteria than I do. So, my opinion, you can buy as you did on the lower price end of the scale, live with the critters a little while, and expect to move 2/3 of them along when you have proven you have acquired better replacements.

Note... the above does not abdicate your need to select the very best animals you can find... if you lower your initial selection criteria, then you may have NO decent cattle left after the proving period.

I continue to believe that disposition is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT selection trait... if you can't pen it, you can't even sell it!

 

[texasjohn]

Good to hear your first working went so well... planning, planning, planning, as you did, pays off.. Also, letting them work themselves with no to gentle pressure from you (as you did) is always best .... hollering and shouting simply confuses them when done all the time, they don't know what it means. Nevertheless, a well timed shout can be useful on occasion.

Cattle like to curve around.. thus the zig-zag gave them somewhere to move to next..