All Things Livestock...

[texasjohn]

You GOTTA put gates on hinges with the bottom hinge pointing up, the top one pointing down... this keeps them from being lifted off hinges.

My point about the feed is that I have to get the feed bucket from the barn, then wind my way thru the pens to where the cattle are, lead them into the proper location... then (poor design) gotta climb a fence to leave the pen and go back around and close a gate.... else (if there happens to be a spooky new calf/momma, I can't slip back around in the pen and close the gate..... ideal would be to have feed accessible near entrance, then do a circular/several pen route that takes me back to a gate where I can exit and get back to easily close the entrance gate.. thus locking everything inside. Disposition of my stock now makes this not too much of a problem... but, in days of old, it was sometimes really tricky to manage to entrap that last jerky animal/calf...

Whereever you put the feed... it should not be RIGHT at the entrance gate... they will smell it and your smartest cow will stand right there and not go in the pen.. thus halting all your efforts...

Don't focus only on the bull as being your problem critter... typically, my bulls are no problem.. and there is only 1 of him... there are lots of cows... and they are in different states of domestication... and if they have a baby calf or hormones are not working right, they can get squirley.... so, my opinion, cows are much more likely to be a problem than the bull.

 

[Spiveyman]

Texasjohn, I really appreciate the input here. I've taken your suggestions and made some changes. (See file below) I agree, a few more posts and the 3rd holding pen is done, and that could make a big difference in the whole operation. I hadn't thought about our backs being open from holding pen #2. I think this also gives us enough circular paths to be able to double back around like you mentioned and close the entrance gate.

I also noted a "safe zone" where the cattle will not have access. This is where we could set up a table with meds and stuff like that and not have to worry about it getting turned over except by the ranch clutz (that's me). I added a gate at the top of the safe zone into the sorting pen. While the animal is squeezed up most of the gates at the top could be open allowing for easy access all around the Dube chute. That safe zone would also be a place for the grain as it is "interior" so any smells would lead the cattle in, not stop them at the entrance gate, but it's also easily accessible for those with opposable thumbs.

Incidentally I'm considering the gate into holding pen #1 as the entrance gate, it's in a corner which should help prevent animals from missing the gate.

I took out the raised platforms, we can always build them if we want. What about angled sides in the alley way? This is to keep the animals from trying to turn around in there. I've seen this on many systems. Is it worth it?

I got to see your tactics in action the last couple of weeks. The guy who's helping me on my farm while I get all of my equipment and learn how to run the place is also grazing some of his cattle on there. He's taken calves off the last two weeks to the stock yards. He does exactly what you mentioned, leads them into a pen by the barn and feeds them. Let them spend the night in there to get comfortable. Then when he needs to work them or load them they come in very easily. Actually, every time they even see me in the barn now, just getting my tractor out or something, they all come down to the corner where the gate is and just stand there patiently in line waiting for me to open the gate. When we bring the feeders out to my farm we'll be mixing them with his seasoned cows to start, so hopefully this bevior will transfer nicely.

When I'm thinking about working the animals and potential problems, the bull is the one that comes to mind because of his SIZE! But yes, the cows I'm sure can be a problem as well (hormones ). We have two matriarchs of the herd, the alpha & beta females if you will. They are awesome, I swear we could teach one of them card tricks if we tried real hard. Very smart, very docile, never challenge the fence, respect our space as well as want theirs. We were giving a tour to an investor and he wanted to know how the watering tanks worked, as we were explaining, as if on queue, Maggie walks up demonstrates pushing the ball out of the way with her snout and takes a big drink. She followed us all around the field, keeping her distance, but very helpful on the tour.

Another reason I talk about bulls a lot, is that we don't just have a bull to deal with, we have more bulls than cows. The bulls flesh out so much better for beef. We do cow/calf stuff, but also buy lots of feeders (300 - 500 lbs) to finish off (>1200lbs). We have about 40 bulls right now all different sizes, several getting near 1,000 lbs. As things pick up we'll be adding bull feeders faster than cows. The feeders need less grass than a cow & calf, so with limited land we are going that rout right now.

 

[texasjohn]

Yep, your holding pen 3 makes a big difference

It looks like you can move stock from the sorting pen out thru the loading gate to pasture.. I'd make sure that the gates latch such that this can happen.

Also, looks like stock can move from holding pen 2 past dube chute and into sorting pen... good if true, if not, this should be done.

Safe zone is good... a place for supplies, etc... only problem is that it is difficult to get into... maybe I just don't understand how it works.. looks like the only entrance is from sorting pen or holding pen 2 via dube chute.

Gate into holding pen 3 from pasture looks larger than the others.. good.. I think you will want to be able to get a vehicle into that pen for numerous reasons over time.

Angled alleyway sides?? Well, mine aren't angled and things work. However, the sides of my chute leading to the squeeze are movable, so if I am working only one size of animals, then the entire chute width can be adjusted. The reality is, however, I almost never make this adjustment because one minute I am running 2000 lb herd bull thru, then 1400 lb cows, then 900 lb heifers, then 400 lb calves, then 100 lb calves. The angled sides are an assist, my opinion, when working stock of various sizes... narrower at bottom constrains calves better. what is critical is that the lower sides be solid... not a pretty sight to have an animal with leg sticking thru the side of the chute/crowding area. If you don't yet have a small hot shot, get one... never use it EXCEPT when all else has failed and you have an animal that is down in a chute and won't exert the effort to get up.. sometimes this is the only way.

I now understand how you are going to get the volume needed... you are not really a cow/calf operation, but a feeder operation. As such, you will ALWAYS have animals that do not have the disposition you really want. As such, MAGGIE is your most important animal on the place, more so than the bull, even. This is because, as you said, you can teach her tricks... AND, YOU WILL.... Even if she skips a calf, she is GOLD to you... put her in with every new batch of animals that you get and let her teach them the pathways thru and around your place... she does your bidding and will calm the others into doing it as well. Then, when a bunch of the new stuff is settled down and following you/her well, you can separate her again and keep patterning the new stock. Pray for another MAGGIE in your herd... often we only have one such cow in our cowboy lifetime. I've had one such cow. I swear I could tell her, "now go back into the pasture and get those 3 jumpy heifers and lead them back into the pen.. but it's OK to leave the other 2 cows and bull".... AND SHE WOULD DO IT!

This process should result in you determining which animals will fit your program and which will NOT fit.. for disposition or other reasons. Those that do NOT fit should be removed IMMEDIATELY... they will teach the others bad habits, make them sick, whatever.. and you don't have enough total space/pastures to put up with bence busters, stuff that runs the other way, bully animals that will bruise stuff in the lot, etc... you will have to determine your own disposition criteria, but this is worth serious and critical thought. It is oh-so-tempting to keep that problem animal because it is "so good." So, define good now as something you can work easily or train to work in your situation in a reasonable period of time. If it flunks your criteria/timeframe, then off it goes (assuming you can even get it into the pen to get rid of.

You are also going to need a good vet/shot/health program... bringing in stuff all the time will result in illnesses you would not otherwise see.. so, be ready... I assume you have a sick trap for such animals near the pens so you can daily administer shots, clean wounds, etc.? Do you have electricity running to the chute area? I know you are not dehorning, etc.... but it's good to have, anyway. Also, lights around the pens... no fun to try to work stock in the total dark.. and there are times when you MUST do it.

So, how many pens have water in them? You need it in at least 2 if not all 3 holding pens.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Spivey I agree with TexasJ with respect to your corral setup - pen 3 is a good add. I've been puzzled about the "safe" area as well. I'd suggest a series of gates inside it as individual holding pens. Sometimes you want a place to put sick animals or maybe a horse or something. A series of gates in there could make some small pens. Other wise I'd be lamenting the nonuse of that space as well. It would affect having walking ramps on both sides of your delivery system to the dube for using pour-ons and such but just having one side is OK.

-Ed-

PS Maggie? If you read the Stockman Grass Farmer and I believe you should a steer named Ugh does just as well!

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

TexasJ how do you pick bulls? I know beefmasters have EPDs do you use them at all? Just curious as I've thoughts on where Sire Summaries have been going. Longhorns don't have one IIRC.

-Ed-

 

[Spiveyman]

Hmmm.... some good points. Safe zone needs better acces. If I could flip the whole thing around, mirror image, the dube actually has a little gate in the side of it that would give perfect access. The only problem is the main entrance would be there by the barn in the middle of the fence rather than the corner. Unless we flipped the middle working section around, then brought them in pen #1, down to #3, and around to #2 to start cutting and working, then put them back out either through the loading gate, or dump back into pen #1 to hold or release from there.... have to ponder that one. Is it better one way or the other to bring them in one pen and start right from there, Vs. having to run them through 3 pens, then cut and start working. The latter just seems longer and more complicated, although if trained properly one only needs to open the gates.

And yes, the gates are such that we could pass from #1 to #2 and back without letting them back in the pasture or having to run through the dube.

We do plan to make the sides of the crowding pen and the alley solid to keep from the cattle getting distracted. Especially around the safe zone so that we can pretty much do whatever we want in there without it affecting the cattle. We do have a hot shot, but have never used it on any animals until we had them in the chute at the slaughter house and they either went down or just wouldn't go forward. I don't want to have any animals on my land that I have to use that just for normal handling. Those suckers would be on a bun! BUT, when you need one, there's nothing like them.

We do hope some day in the future to be more of a cow/calf deal for many reasons. We want to get our breeding program going, maybe show some, but at least have some good stock to sell for breeding purposes. Our profit will be better on calves we birth, and we get to control everything from conception to consumption. We like that aspect. However, we will probably always be open to a good deal on newly weaned bulls. Getting them at 300 lbs we hope they are young enough to assimilate into our system easily, but you never know what genetics you are getting. Sometimes you just can't train bad genes to act well.

I do appreciate the sentiments about picking the right animals to keep. My partner is waffling on that jumpy cow. She hasn't bothered the fence since he got after her with the shotgun. She's a decent looking cow and gave us a great calf this year - that's her looking at the camera:

But she's always going to have a case of wonder lust. I'd rather get the money out of her for beef and go shopping. That's Maggie in the back left there - back straight as a yardstick. She usually poses anytime she sees us with a camera!

We're set at my partner's farm as far as vet/med...etc. I don't know the vet close to my farm yet, but my papaw (80 yrs of farming experience) is 2.5 miles down the road. Between his knowledge and the vet he uses I can probably figure it out. My partner's farm has two paddocks with in ground waterers we can and have used to quarantine. There is water at the barn we can plumb out to tanks in these pens, though they hopefully won't be needed much. I hadn't really thought about that. He does have those big rubber tanks with floaters in them that he used before putting in the waterers. There's a utility light just above this working area, but there's also electricity in the barn with we need to run an extension cable out there.

Wow, that's a lot of stuff. One question though. What kind of floor should we use for the crowding chute/alleyway/under the dube? Concrete? Gravel? other?

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I'm not sure you need to do anything special in terms of a floor. Pretty costly to do much but if you feel you must I'd probably do grooved (for drainage) concrete - easy to wash. But the reality is why do anything it's not likely to be used that much - is it? The reason I say that is because you calve year around and so different cows will be on different schedules (for example you probably can't vaccinate or treat for parasites every cow or calf for the same thing at the same time because of differences in gestation/milking - for example no modified live vaccines on small calves is common) plus your numbers aren't very high and so the impact to the system will be minimal at any one time.

Note also that when I said multiple pens in the "safe" area you should consider gates out into the crowding area as well as a sequence of gates.

One thing I will say - how much of a system do you really need? How big do you expect your numbers to ever get? I would build a system carefully considering these things. An old cowboy told me once you should only build one set of corrals in your entire life otherwise you've done something wrong.

-Ed-

PS I think she's a nice lookin cow!

 

[Spiveyman]

Ed, I was typing when your posts hit, so I didn't see them before I posed mine.

What I dubbed the "safe zone" meant that there was no cattle access to that area. That's where we can store meds and such without having to worry about them messing it up. Also, it's an area we could potentially be in with the PVC pipes to cut, direct, motivate... etc cattle without having to be in the crowding area or alley. That was the point of the raised sections, to be able to direct from up there if we wanted. I visited a well known Longhorn man in Ohio who had a set up like that. You could walk the elevated area and cut the cattle without being down in there.

Good points about not getting high volume usage in the corral, but USUALLY we get decent rain around here and it's likely to be wet. One time through the wet marshy ground with the herd and the grass will be a mud pit. I think we just want to avoid that. Not sure we want the expense or permanence of concrete. We were hoping smaller gravel might work OK.

As for how much of a system we really need, well we plan to grow the business, so hopefully our ~50 head will be much more than that soon. But in the mean time, even if we only ever have that many we want a good system to use. Like texasjohn pointed out, one that can be operated by one person if need be. One well thought out that we don't kick ourselves over something stupid - we also only want to build it once. And we want it to be safe for us as much as possible. Oh, and one more thing, this is America!!!! When's just enough ever been sufficient?

Please translate:
EPD
IIRC

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

The safe area as drawn appears to be pretty big. Thats why I suggested maybe some pens. Part of it near the dube could still be a small shed or overhang for supplies. A gravel base would work OK and help with drainage I suppose - just don't know how bad you need it. Concrete is expensive no doubt. Corrals should be sited on ground that drains fairly well anyway. If it's that muddy you can always work cattle the next day.

IIRC is a standard acronym for If I Recall Correctly while EPD is short for Expected Progeny Difference and is specific to genetics. Most cattle breed organizations produce what are called Sire Summaries which contain genetic information on a number of purebred bulls within that breed. An epd is a measure of genetic potential of offspring of a particular bull relative to the epd trait your looking at. For example if a bull has a birth weight epd of +10 and the breed average birthweight epd is +3 then that bulls offspring can be expected to weigh about 7lbs more than the breed average at birth. You can directly compare bulls this way as well. EPDs are calculated for a number of traits the most common of which are birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight, milk and total maternal and in some breeds some carcass traits. EPDs are a powerful tool if you know how to use them but more of any trait is not always better. I don't think the longhorn association does epds although I don't know for sure.

-Ed-

 

[Spiveyman]

The site where we are building this system drains as well as any other stretch of clay filled soil in KY. We'll probably at least put down some gravel, just in case. Another option initially was to move he working section closer to the barn and build a lean-to over it. That way we could have lights and a roof to take the weather and time of day out of the equation. However, the overall system didn't seem as flexible.

Thanks for the definitions. There's a whole "text messaging" language of acronyms out there. I'm just not cool enough to know most of them, and not experienced enough to be up on all the cattle ones. Understanding the EPD thing makes sense now. I'm pretty sure Longhorns don't use that because there are programs here that will give you funds to buy a better herd sire but you can't use them towards a Longhorn bull because they aren't scored that way. Working with Longhorns these days can make you feel like a salmon - always swimming against the current, but it's still worth it to me.