All Things Livestock...

[texasjohn]

re safe area: Hard for me to tell the scale... I'm not worried about "wasted space"... I think such a working area is critical for holding people and tools. Moving people into and out of that area was my concern. If the dimentions are such that a gate or two could be added to allow very small 1 or two animal pens, that might be useful from time to time... but I would not sacrifice usability for people of the safe space for that purpose.. means that gates would need to be completely out of the way when working stock thru the setup.

re Maggie: Maggie trumps Ugh... she's there, understands the commands of her owner, is likely to have a long life there since she's a cow. A steer has one purpose.. to market, to market, to market he goes. Now, if you mean that if you happen to identify a steer that performs the same services as Maggie, sure, Ugh could be just as useful... as long as he's around.

re bull selection: I use the following criteria, in order, it's a series of high hurdles... fail ANY one and I pass on the bull. It's amazing how many bulls you CANNOT use if you use this technique. About 1 in 500 candidates pass my criteria. I hunt for balance, not extremes, in all areas. EPD info is used if it is available on the bull.... I prefer to purchase 5 yr or older bulls... you can see their progeny and they may have EPD'S as well. EPD's are simply an effort to predict what will happen... progeny observation and knowing that heifers will mature properly, etc. is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. A mistake is less likely when using mature bulls, my opinion and experience, than rolling the dice on a yearling. ANY mistake in bull selection is a lifetime mistake in the life of a ranch and herd.

Disposition: Must be very easy to handle both in pasture and pen, folllow me with a bucket of cubes, respect me and stay a 3 foot to 6 foot distance. Not be jumpy in any way. Allow me to walk slowly around him without switching around and keeping his head to me. Higly aware of what is happening in the pasture, alert, stays with a cow when the cow in near heat or in heat. Checks cows regularly when they piss.

Hardiness: Underline score of 1 or two. ABSOLUTELY no prepuce showing, except when sexually excited and breeding, even in hot weather. Absolutely no injuries, ever, to sheath and prepuce. PREPUCE NEVER OPERATED ON. Sound feet and legs, ability to stand on rear two legs for breeding and NOT put excessive weight on heifer. I will breed 1st calf heifers to mature bulls of 2000 lbs.. have not broken down a heifer yet.

Conformation: U1 OR U2 using BBU conformation criteria. I look for medium tall bulls and seek to avoid extremes in size.

Milking Ability: I look at the bags of his heifers, they need to be not penduluous, have even teats, well attached. I'm thrilled when I can observe the bull's mother... this bag is the best indicator of how his heifers will look in another 8 or so years. EPD'S if available should be in top 50% of the breed.

Weight Gain: Top 50% of weight gain EPD's for breed, if available. Else, personal weight gain in top 50% of contemporary test group. I prefer forage tests for weight gain. Excessive focus on weight gain will give you excessive birth weights as well... terrible mistake for the cow/calf operator.

Fertility: Must pass fertility test with stain. High motility, few defective sperm. I put birthweight EPD's here... I look for EPD's in lower 50% of the breed, if they exist. Otherwise, I observe his offspring, talk to the owner before I purchase the animal. I look for calves typically in the 70 to 85 lb range. Certainly, this varies by age of cow and forage availabvility. Any calf over 90 lbs can be a problem... over 100 lbs is deadly. Large testicles, evenly sized, hanging side by side, with a defined neck to the scrotum and demonstrated ability to pull it up or distend it... critical for breeding in hot and cold weather. He must "look like a bull" with short cannon bones, dark masculine shoulders, coarse hair on shoulders, ie his hormones must demonstrate externally that they are now working and have been working throughout his lifetime. I put fertility as the last criteria because sperm and ***** can be objectively observed and measured and is the last test to pass before I write a check or use one of my own bulls (which I have done)

Not a criteria.. hide color, horns, pedigree, marketing hype.

I hope you can find some of Jon Bonsma's criteria in what I use, else I have failed.

 

[texasjohn]

re: footing in chutes....... gravel would be good.... I recommend it... concrete has its problems and is too expensive, IMHO.

re: working area... if you have an option of putting any sort of shed over the crowding and chute area, it will be very beneficial..... out of the sun... out of the rain... and, trust me, when you are needing to work stuff it will be unpleasant weather, mostly... and, waiting to work stock until another day is extremely expensive.

re: your cattle working schedule.. EasyEd is right... a year round calving operation WILL have you (given proper management) working your stock at least once a week... sometimes to vaccinate, sometimes to palpate, sometimes to wean, sometimes to send to market, sometimes to ear tag calves, etc. etc... this means that you WILL need to be able to get to the area (hopefully all weather road) any time... and to work stock any day you decide to do it. This means that you will, regularly, be seeking to get your entire herd from a pasture into the pens. Note... it is folly to allow one to hang back each time... every animal must get into the pens every time (exception being a few day old calf waiting for momma to come back) else that particular animal will become a severe problem to pen.

re: jumpy cow... it's always the "purty" ones that develop undesirable traits... if she is fully resolved to stay home, then fine... but time will tell. If there is any way to run a single strand of smooth wire with electricity to the place she was jumping... my opinion about 36 inches high, this might be just enough to keep her home and make a "good" cow out of her. If not, you've still done a good thing in getting the fence strengthened between your place and the neighbor.

re: solid chute sides... I'd make them solid about half way up ... but you need some way to run pipes thru the chute to block behind animals so they don't back up... if the chute sides are solid past shoulder high, this option is removed, looks to me like.

 

[Spiveyman]

Bull selection... wow. That is impressively detailed. wow. We have two bulls for breeding. If they turn out to be worthy it will be by luck. I suspect 5 years from now we'll have a very different herd than we have today. We won't stick with anything that doesn't produce what we're looking for, but we're still learning what we're looking for. It was a place to start for us, that was reasonable money-wise. Given our operation I think we'll be able to recover if the bulls don't pan out, but the genetics on both are very strong, and so far seem to be exactly what we'd want. Some things that are important to Longhorn producers are not important to others. Horn can make a multi-thousand dollar difference on price. Hide comes into play as well, though not as much. Guess we Longhorn folk are a different sort.

Thanks for the feedback on gravel, and shed. We'll make the sides solid part ways up or cut notches for sliding the PVC in there. Sorry for the brief response, I had a BAD lunch at IHOP....

 

[texasjohn]

A bad IHOP lunch is a bad experience indeed.... hope all is better now.

PVC pipe as a blocking device is not functional... it breaks. I use blocks behind animals that will take 2000 lbs of a bull backing up against them... thus, wood poles, 2 to 3 inch metal pipe, something like that. Best thing is a fiberglass sucker rod... light and strong...BUT I haven't found a good way to put a sheath around it so you don't get fiberglas in hands.

Re bull selection: My understanding, imperfect I am sure, of the commercially beneficial strengths of longhorn genetics is as follows:

Small birth weight calves... 45 lbs to 65 lbs...
long life.... productive cows to age 20 not uncommon
fertility
hardiness... good feet, legs, foraging ability on poor quality feed.

That said, the purebred business, any breed, has a way of putting value on animals that is human made. For Longhorns, my understanding, imperfect I am sure, is that these traits are:

Horn length and shape (not actually required for survival anymore)
hide color (human eye determines beauty, not nature in this case)
family tree and/or original breeder/ranch (advertising $$=value ?, this happens in all breeds)

The concept of what you are looking for is a difficult one requiring explicit measurable criteria, else it is smoke and mirrors. I challenge you to write down exactly what it is that you want, in measurable terms, for each bull, cow and calf as they move thru the life cycle. Only when you measure each animal will you know where you are and how far you are in getting to where you want to be. You are already facing opposing objectives.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Pen design - well I personally don't like wasted space and so I would find a way to use it. The individual pen (probably 2 or 3) idea is what I would do. More than once I've wanted to isolate the odd animal or two and with the design as is I don't see alot of flexibilty for Spivey to do that. Note that if the gates to the pens are open its still open space.

Bull Selection - Dr Jan Bonsma from S Africa is well known for his work in cattle fertility/genetics/selection etc! The point that he sometimes makes - well often actually - is the fundamental matching of breed/genetic types within a breed to your production environment (Actually for many breeds there is today as much genetic variation within breed as between breeds!). I totally agree with this. In fact I take this a step further and consider my market - so there has to be a match both environment and market wise. I think these to be the most important considerations there are in selecting breed(s) or line(s) within a breed.

When I look at bulls (cows too for that matter) I use what I call the AP3 (APPP) rule. Never heard anybody say it this way before but it is what I use.

Appearance - is it a bull? Seriously! Skinny flatsided nobut animals hardly look like bulls. Many of the specifics that TexasJ listed I look for as well. Bone structure, feet, testicles, depth, spring of rib, but, reproductive injuries, etc. I stay away from horns if I can and hide color shouldn't matter but in reality it does so it is a minor minor consideration.

Performance - What did he weigh at birth, weaning, yearling? Does he cover well? If I have access to parents or offspring I too like to see them and know what they did performancewise (and how they look). When it comes to performance though find out what you can about how he was raised. Special feeding, whether they were from implants into dairy cows that kind of stuff does have a major bearing on performance.

Potential - By this I mean Genetic Potential and by this I do mean EPDs. They are a strong tool in guiding you toward and away from certain individual bulls. Not that the bulls are bad animals I just know they would not fit my production environment.

Pedigree - Sometimes I've looked at animals with no EPDs but if I know the breed I can make pretty good guesses as to genetic potential by looking at a pedigree. Not all seedstock producers do EPDs sometimes for good reason. Especially if they are bucking the weight/maternal EPD trends going on in many breeds.

If I have both EPDs and pedigree (plus appearance and performance) for a bull in a breed I have some knowledge of (Shorthorns and Red Angus in my case) I'm not afraid of choosing a yealing bull.

Matching to your production and I think market environment is step 1. For example(s) in some environments you want easy fleshing cattle in some you don't. In some environments frame score 5 or 6 is good in others frame score 8 is good just depends.

As TexasJ said bull selection is real important even if he is only used for one year he has a major impact - so it is real important.

Opinions?

-Ed-

PS Ugh was used in a stocker operation and led new stockers around year to year. Maggie works for cow/calf!

 

[texasjohn]

Opinions offered re EasyEd comments:

Pens... more is better, always, of different sizes, all with water in them, many if not most with shade and protection from the elements... assuming you have sufficient funds for same. Failing that, I 've always had to make do with what I have available.

Bulls: Yep, much genetic variation within any breed... you gotta figure out what you are looking for as relates to your physical and marketing environment and go find it, as EasyEd says.

Bull appearance: EasyEd, if by bone structure you really mean no wry noses, wry tails, knock knees, bow knees, weak hocks, sway back, etc.. I totally agree with you. However, I have heard people select on BONE... meaning the circumfrence of the leg bones where there is little meat and primarily hide. I've never seen or had an animal with such light bone that it prevented function and really don't know what these people mean. Other than it is a visual measure that is easy to comment on and select for and that many "stockmen" seem to put lots of emphasis on. I don't eat bone and suspect that extreme bone leads to extreme birth weights, although I don't have scientific evidence to prove that point. So, which kind of "bone structure" are you focusing on? If the second type, please explain why this is significant (other than that there is folklore surrounding its desirability).

Performance: Of course, all individual performance measures should be evaluated against a statistically significant set of contemporaries. This means, IMHO, at least 50 animals all born essentially together, managed in identical circumstances, using their natural mothers, and adjustments made for individual age and age of their mother (heifer or mature cow). Sadly, many throw performance figures around as though they meant something when the sample size is extremely small or even only one individual. Or the animal is an embroyo transplant, or the calf was creep fed from an early age. Raw pounds are nearly worthless... % comparison to contemporaries means something. Performance measures, when available, should include: birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight, scrotal circumfrence at 13 months, maternal traits, feed lot gain, back fat covering.

EPD: It's amazing how fast the accuracy of EPD's improves when you include a bull's own offspring into the data. Looking at EPD's will prevent you from using a bull with EPD's that you do not want. However, using EPD's alone will not assure you are using a bull that will perform as desired. For example, some bulls will sire heifers that are prolapse prone, or late maturing... takes years to figure this out. EPD's alone will not predict this.

Pedigree: EVERY animal has a pedigree.. so just having one is meaningless... And, there are many purebred animals that are touted as being from WONDERFUL BULL and FABULUOUS COW.. meaning that their owners spent lots of money on advertising... I look closely at EPD's and such to see if a pedigree REALLY means anything... It is instructive to take a bunch of animals with EPD's and block out the pedigree information.. sort them into EPD patterns you like, then look back and see if one or more pedigrees are prominent... I've OFTEN found that there will be one pedigree that shows up well, but has not been advertised. I've even more often found that the hyper-advertised pedigree means nothing when you scientifically try to determine exactly what it does mean!

Re matching production for environment, market, etc... Right on... frame scores and fleshing ability in one area may not work for another area. However, it is an extremely easy fallacy for a breeder to select a bull based on larger frame, not realizing the impact that will have on the nutritional needs of the offspring.

One last comment.. have you noticed... FAT SELLS!!

 

[Spiveyman]

I've been out of commission a bit this weekend - between the food poisoning and trying to work on my tractor. I'm getting back in the swing of things though.

Thanks for the reminder about the PVC not being strong enough for blocking comments. Good point. We'll probably have to get some time working these animals and be flexible to get down what we'll need.

Your comments about Longhorn bull selection sound pretty close. The only thing that I didn't understand was this comment:

You are already facing opposing objectives.

Do you mean raising Longhorns AND going for beef? There are some trade offs for us because we're going for beef. The longer horned cows can sometimes have less milk. The longer horned bulls often have less body mass and vice versa. The challenge, and part of the fun factor, for us is working with the genetics to optimize everything we're looking for in our herd. That does include horn, hide, and meat. Obviously the meat is paying the bills right now way more than the hides and horns, although we do have a market to sell those as well. It's partly about the business aspects, and maximizing profits, but it's also about the dream of doing something we really enjoy. We've both been in the corporate world and can make a living there, but want to be able to make a living doing something we love. We don't expect to get rich off this, but if we can live comfortably and love what we're doing that's better than being rich anyways.

 

[Spiveyman]

Pen design - well I personally don't like wasted space and so I would find a way to use it. The individual pen (probably 2 or 3) idea is what I would do. More than once I've wanted to isolate the odd animal or two and with the design as is I don't see alot of flexibilty for Spivey to do that. Note that if the gates to the pens are open its still open space.

This isn't the only facility on the farm. There are two paddocks than can be used to isolate, as well as a barn and stalls in the barn, so I think we're Ok there. As for "wasted" space, we may just look at that a little differently. To me the purpose of the space is to be just that, space. A place to store stuff that the cattle can't get to, a place for us to stand and not have to worry about the cattle getting to us. My wife and I have a long running debate about what to do with the milk when you've eaten your cereal. She says if you don't dink it, then it's wasted. I say its purpose was to lubricate the cereal so that you can enjoy the cereal. Assuming it did that, even if you pour some down the drain when you are finished with cereal, the milk still served its purpose so it's not "wasted." Maybe that's how this space is here, to me if it serves a purpose I don't consider it wasted even if it never has a hoof print in it.

You and texasjohn have some great experience to pull from and I appreciate the thoughts you've shared here. We all have different operations, but there are also many common goals. 10 or 20 years down the road I'll be able to tell you EXACTLY what I want in a bull, but even where Longhorn people are concerned we're doing things a bit differently. Not many people out there really focussing on the Longhorn meat - maybe for obvious reasons. All the meat people seem to focus on better yielding breeds, the aesthetic people get Longhorns and don't worry about the meat so much. Either way about it though, we're having fun and expect to continue doing so. Every penny we make on this is over and above the fact that we're getting to live out some of our dreams! I can get on a horse and ride out amongst my own herd of Longhorns. That means now I don't have to ever out grow that childhood dream of being a cowboy.

 

[texasjohn]

Spiveyman, I really do understand your desire to optimize, within limits your operation and applaud the idea of following a dream and seeking to have an enjoyable meaningful life outside the corporate culture... I, too, did the same thing and moved to jointly raising cattle and working in high tech stuff until I retired from high tech after 30 years

I mean the following are opposing objectives and you may or may not be able to overcome these via niche marketing and superb management

horns vs simple pens, require more feet of feed bunker space

horns can be a safety risk, more difficulty in working thru pens

horns can mean bruised meat at slaughter

longhorns vs max lbs of meat per day of age vs forage consumed

longhorns vs heavy milking ability and heavy weaned calves

longhorns must be niche marketed else suffer

grass fed = less fat = less marbling = some would argue less tenderness/taste (I agree taste is a matter of ..um.. taste)

hormone free and organic = fewer lbs over the scale

if your definition of organic includes no antibiotics or vaccinations, then = losses from various problems, scours, blackleg, infections, whatever.

year round calving and slaughter sales = extra management time and expense working stock very frequently and taking an animal to slaughter rather than working and marketing just a couple of times a year.

running stockers on grass jointly with cow/calf operation = two different management techniques and needs = very difficult to achieve a good management and forage balance for either group on one ranch unless many, many acres, pastures and good fences.

Growing out bulls (greater weight gain, yes) together = more fights, fence problems if next to cows/heifers in heat than if they were steers.

Now, it could be that you have properly addressed these concerns and that your management practices and marketing overcome these challenges. Please know that I respect your innovative skill and initiative and tenacity in setting up your operation so far. You have the single most significant and important quality.... an inquiring mind and excellend analytical abilities and the skill to understand the implications of data. This has already and will continue to serve you well as time progresses.

Let me make the point that sometimes people can know a fact and yet fail to understand its implications... I once saw a large advertisement proudly displayed in a purebred magazine... it said... We carefully picked our herd sire from among 150 of BIG BREEDER'S bull calf crop and are excited to let you know that we got the very largest birth weight calf of the entire group.... 145lbs!!

Spiveyman, I don't think you are going to make this kind of mistake!

 

[Spiveyman]

145 lbs!!! Holy cow! Or should I say hole-ly cow once they got that thing out of her. Jerry Clower used to refer to someone like that as beging educated beyond their intelligence.

Certainly the horns present some significant issues that we're having to deal with. Something as simple as dropping the animals off at the slaughter house. Their gates are so narrow that many bulls get frustrated. We learn something new just about every trip down, and have a system now where we're actually excited when we get a particularly large bull. It's a challenge, our adrenaline rush for the day. The good thing for us right now is that we're working with stock that were not bred specifically for beef. These are what I'd call fairly average in the Longhorn realms, and yet our business is exactly where we want it to be right now. Any improvements we're able to make as we refine our breeding with enhance our profits, but our business model works the way it is today. We'll never be a top breeder in the nation, but we'd like be respectable.

It's a niche market for sure, but our jobs are to broaden that niche. So far the taste/tenderness thing has not been a problem at all. On the contrary we've gotten nothing but amazing feedback. I'm sometimes surprised at how much people love our beef. We've been successful on a small scale locally, now all we have to do is start to repeat that success regionally and let it grow. We could certainly crank up profits with hormones and feed, but on the other hand people pay premium for grass fed natural. $$ per head it can work out just as good for us. We will use meds to treat specific ailments but don't broadly apply them. Vaccines are OK - people don't seem to mind that, and we're not organic, don't claim or want to be. Just as natural as is feasible.

We do hope to be taking animals in to slaughter on a regular basis, weekly would be great as that means volume. Working with a distributor soon we hope to just get orders, we need X head delivered on Monday. We load them up and drop them off. My business partner and I have a complimentary set of skills, so that has served us well so far. We're both eager to learn and to get in there and get dirty figuring out stuff along the way. Should be a fun ride. It's also a neat way to bring up a family, around the farm.