All,,,,,

[johnday]

The scenario. A guy asks a ligitimate question. A guy gives a legitimate answer. Sometimes his opinion, and a lot of times backed with facts. Then someone takes offense because HIS favorite color is blasphemed in his opinion. Then the flame wars start.

What's going on here? Why is this happening? Why it is happening escapes me, but it's obvious whats going on. There are a number of longtime, bigtime contributors that are starting to fade away. The feeling among some is, " Why bother, I might offend someone". I see a lot on here I don't agree with, sometimes I keep up on the thread, sometimes not. I've always liked this site, Muhammad and the others do an excellent job. I've met some very nice people face to face. And many others I'd like to. This site is for fun and sharing of info.

If you don't care for a certain TV show, do you sit there and watch it anyway? I'll bet you change the channel. I think some people should become a little more tolerant, and take the facts and figures, and opinions, as they come.

I'm just a little concerned about what is happening, and would really like to see us get back to normal ASAP!

Yeah, I'm driving one of the big three, so what, it's what I like and the deal was great. I and others could really care less about what color you drive, it's about what you can contribute to the safety and enjoyment of your machine, your building techniques, or choice of tools.

This was most definetly not directed at any one person or color of machine. It's something I've noticed, and have recieved PM's about. And NO, I'm not your Dad. Even tho I'm probably old enough to be!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just my .02. Let the poison pens fly.

 

[beenthere]

Good post.

Although I may not accomplish it, I do try to 'stay out' of someone else's discussion of equipment and brand that I don't like, don't know about, and/or wouldn't own. I try to respond once to a point, and not continue a discussion of my response. If a new point is made, then I may respond to it. But I'll avoid arguing with anyone just to try to 'win' them over. Won't happen anyway. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

On the other hand, depending on the question asked, or an answer to a question, a thread needs some 'additional' rhetoric or questioning, not necessarily for the discussion between the posters on the thread, but for others who are reading it and trying to learn from it.

Some answers (probably including some of mine) miss the point or are mis-leading, and need some additional response.

I like green, and could care less if others don't like green or prefer a different color. I stick up for my choice, but hopefully not to the point that I am being 'rude' to anyone who doesn't like my choice.

It's a great forum, and the exchange of information is nothing short of fantastic and awesome. Thanks to the moderators and supporters who have promoted and worked so hard to make it what it is today.

This is just but one view of the forum. There are probably a thousand more, and none quite like 'my view'. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[johnday]

beenthere; A thousand more? Likely. I'd be happy if 20 responded. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Inspector507]

John,
As the membership increases, we are going to get a more diverse crowd joining in on posts. That's something no one can control. I love the tractor and the deal that I got. However if someone asks what I like or don't like about it, I'll respond. I will try to share my real life experiences with their question. Otherwise I won't. I try to limit my posts to those that will be of some benefit to someone. I have limited my posts in the last 4-5 months because I refuse to get into those kind of arguments. BUT when I do see bad/dangerous info posted, I will respond to that also. Of course I get flaming responses or PM's from that too, but I blow it off. My coming here has opened up a whole new world for me and I learn a lot, most of it by reading /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

John, I actually PM's a moderator asking if I could run a thread like this regarding some of the junk that is happening on TBN.

Here is what I see.
#1- long time members are leaving, including a very knoweldgable moderator
#2- long time members are afraid to post in many of the forums
#3- several known troublemakers run rampant and simply post against people for no purpose at all
#4- objective discussion is just about gone (I know when things will heat us as soon as I get a PM from a moderator telling me that I made a good post and nobody will be able to argue with . . . )
#5- anyone who owns a Big 3 tractor (85+% of CUT owners) is insulted and told they overpaid, when proof is provided otherwise, they are called liars
#6- because of the insults & fights, experienced users now avoid answering "what tractor do I need" posts and new users get responses from people who are often inexperiences operators with minimal real experience
#7- people notice when long time regulars leave, and often those regulars send warning signs about TBN before leaving
#8- brand loyalists scream way to loudly about how great their brand is when it often is not the best solution (or even a resonable one) to the poster who asked something
#9- some people appear to pride themselves in taking threads off topic by bashing/insulting posters (see point #2)
#10- many regulars who remain are posting far less information
#11- many of the threads sound almost like a 'support group'

John, I think you really hit on something. The overall tone of TBN has really changed over the past few months.

 

[JerryG]

#1-There has been more than one because of the direction that TBN has taken.
#2-If you do you are more or less told that your experience means nothing
#3-These troublemakers misdirect threads to where the thread is of no use to anyone
#4-You can’t be objective because if you do you are view as not PC, then they bombard you.
#5-That goes for any old established brand because you are treated as if you are stupid if your brand has been in the U.S. for over 40 years.
#6-This is increasing more and more every month. Why offer your experience when a member that only has 100 life time hours on any kind of tractor, shoots you down and tells you don’t know what you are talking about.
#7-Several old time members have spoken with me before they have left in the last two years. They all echo the same things as these numbered items.
#8-Every color has its good and bad points and somethings a brand will not have a model that would be idea for a given situation. That doesn’t mean anything because they will cram their color down your throat even if that isn’t one of the brands that you have said that you are looking at or is even available in your area.
#9-Taking a thread off topic, Ha. The best way to do that is to just try to compare two brands, even if that is what the original poster is wanting. You know no matter how you try to be diplomatic about it; you are going to get flamed if you mention a brand other than your own.
#10-Why give information if you know that the information you are giving is going to get flamed by some that don’t have a clue what they are talking about.
#11-Group support more like an organized dog pack. One jumps you and then the others attack.

 

[daedong]

I frequent here more for the social side as I live a fairly isolated life due to location. I try my best not to offend anyone even though on a few occasions it has happened inadvertently. Yes I see TBN moving from a country town atmosphere to a city one. Increasingly many members for one reason or another will go out of there way to take a shot at someone they don't like, were good manners would be to just not make comment. It is dare I say sad to see members drop of that you get to know like Neil from OZ and more recently Henro. They all have different reasons for less frequent visits and many simply have nothing to do with this forum per sae
Thats my .02c worth

 

[Dargo]

Well, I won't be too long in my post, because I've been told that by writing too much, and giving the facts and reasons for my reply, that I use up precious bandwidth. But, I don't have a high amount of respect for the person who posted that about me, so I'll write away. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif However, it is comments like that that not only give me a sour taste for TBN, but also make me wonder if a true and reasonable answer to a post will be allowed.

It has taken me almost an hour to look and see, but apparently I've never recommended my model of tractor to a poster inquiring about different models, and only once have I even mentioned that the original poster even consider the brand that I currently own when it wasn't on his list. And, that one time was when the original poster had inquired about other brands he might consider for his needs.

I have no interest or desire in brand wars. It means nothing to me. I've said it many times before; if there is a tractor brand that is considerably better than what I own, I'll just buy that brand. I honestly couldn't possibly care less if someone asking about what tractor brand would best suit them buys my particular brand of tractor. However, it does make TBN a joke when, no matter what specific needs are required to be filled, or what tractor brands a post originator is considering, there is an entire group of people who profess that the poster buy their brand or that poster will make a huge mistake and will pay too much for a popular, but inferior, tractor. Worse yet, if someone agrees with the original poster about the brands he is considering, (and those brands do not not happen to include the brand being shoved down his throat) that poster is painted as someone who hates the brand that the "plugger" posters are telling everyone to buy.

Personally, I don't need a support group to make me feel comfortable about the brand tractor I bought. If my particular brand will work out best for someone inquiring about for specific tasks, great, I'll tell them that I think that the brand I happen to own will work for them. If not, I frequently give them a few other brands and models to consider. It's actually humorous to see the same people telling every post originator inquiring about which tractor to buy, to buy the brand they own. I won't list them, but if you've been on the board more than a month, you know the people who always scream to buy their brand or you'll pay too much, you won't be getting as good of a tractor, and that the more popular brands break down more often. There are about a dozen "new" regulars on here that I've never seen miss an opportunity to tell a poster of "Which tractor to buy" to buy their brand. The needs of the poster are not important, nor are the brands the poster is considering. My wife has heard me laugh out loud at times because of this, and I've just told her that it's just a joke and I don't explain to her. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As I first mentioned, if someone tries to be pragmatic about the suggestion, and lists facts and figures, they are accused of being too wordy. One of these guys actually broke out their thesaurus and used the word "verbose". /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Basically, they don't want their beloved brand to possibly be proven to not be the best choice for a poster due to actual facts. What a sin that would be. You can't let facts get in the way! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I first was attracted to TBN because of the vast base of knowledge that I was able to tap for answers to my questions. Now it is very much becoming a group of people who want to cram their tractor brand down everyone's throat and to accost anyone who owns a big three brand tractor. I want answers to my tractor questions based on fact, not based on how someone can sell me on buying their brand of tractor.

I see why many of the "old timers" who possess the knowledge that is important to me have been fading away. Their posts are constantly attacked because they are not brand loyal. Their posts are fact specific. As JerryG said, I constantly see people who have virtually no tractor experience (and some who don't even own a tractor) verbally slam a thoughtful post from someone who has thousands of hours of seat time and who makes comments based on their experience.

I constantly look at tractors, even tractors that are not big three tractors. I posted pictures yesterday of a horrible accident that happened at a Branson / Kioti dealership. I actually liked the dealer and found that he was brutally honest. However, to post my findings there, supported by pictures and the dealership owner's own comments would highly upset a group of people here on TBN. So, rather than share the knowledge I gained, I will simply keep it to myself for my own personal use for when I purchase my next tractor. I have no time nor desire to justify facts. Sometimes I feel as if I'm trying to explain that water is wet to someone who recruits his friends to do their best to try to prove me wrong. Maybe it is bad, but I now chose to let them believe what they want, and to mislead those who will believe them.

I don't mind a good debate; as a matter of fact, I find it informative and entertaining. However I do not enjoy debating someone who is not subject to logic nor reasoning. And, I find it difficult to understand total blind brand loyalty. These things make TBN less interesting, less informative, and less fun. That's my take, so now feel free to flame away. As I said, I don't need a support group to make me comfortable about what I own.

 

[Cliff_Johns]

I admit to not paying attention to the "Which tractor should I buy?" discussions anymore. I read less and post less than I used to because of the signal to noise ratio in the tractor purchase arena.

The comment about a rural to city attitude seems to define it best.

I quit reading or posting on TBN for a month or so a few months back, then decided to come back and just read the attachments and parts of the owning and operating threads, and the rural living sections.

I plan to try to hit more thread for a while, give things another shot.

Everyones opinion is valid as an opinion. Facts are facts. We need to focus on defining our opinion and less on saying why someone else's opinion is wrong.

Cliff

 

[ronjhall]

Very good post John and others. Its a shame to see some of the best TBNers fall by the wayside because some cannot accept that others have an opinion whether agreed or not. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif