Almost had a SEDGEWOOD!!!!!!!

[RegL]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Excellent troubleshooting and write up. Thanks.

One thing someone pointed out to me was that I mounted my fire extinguisher on top of the engine compartment... which will most likely be on fire, so I might not be able to reach it. I may re-consider the mounting location. That is something to think about when you get your extinguisher.


Not long after I got the PT I removed all the tunnel covers to make the greese fittings accessible. I don't think you really need all that protection in that location. At least I've never had a problem with anything breaking. In the vertical tunnel below the steering wheel I can now carry a rag and a 2 lieter bottle of water. I bet you could easily mount a small fire extinguisher in there.

 

[Sedgewood]

<font color="red"> Anyway, with a meter, the trouble was not hard to find. The starter relay stuck closed, energizing the solenoid and running the starter. As I remember, when I shut the engine off, the starter did spin for a few seconds, and as I know now, stopped only because a connection in the solenoid melted and broke the circuit. That,s a good thing because I had no tools with me to remove the battery cable or cut it, and that would have been the only way to kill power. If the solenoid had not burned open I probably would have stood by helplessly watching my beloved PT burn up.
</font>

Now ya got me thinkin' again darnit. You say the starter relay stuck, energizing the starter until the solenoid melted down. That might explain why the start wire to my solenoid was carrying current when it burned through. Except there was no starter relay to stick. (see my wiring diagrams) I suppose the ignition switch could have stuck in the start position but there is a neutral safety switch and PTO safety switch in series with it, both of which should have been open while mowing.

Bet you don't like the price of that new starter!
Sedgewood

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> there was no starter relay to stick. </font>
The solenoid, itself, is a heavy duty relay. There are a number of types. They usually aren't prone to failure closed, but it's certainly possible. For instance, my PTO solenoid stuck last summer. (Terry sent a replacement, but I haven't put it on because it seems to be working and getting the solenoid unscrewed threatens to twist off the mounting bolts.)
But a question. If the starter solenoid sticks, and therefore the starter is spinning, without load, or even accelerated by the engine, how much current does it draw? Is it enough to melt the wire?
On either of your starters, is the starter gear torn up?

 

[RegL]

"But a question. If the starter solenoid sticks, and therefore the starter is spinning, without load, or even accelerated by the engine, how much current does it draw? Is it enough to melt the wire?
On either of your starters, is the starter gear torn up? "

The starter motor would not have drawn much and as a matter of fact, the motor itself still spins fine. I don't even know how long the gears were engaged before the solenoid failed from overheating. The starter solenoid burned up do to the constant voltage being applied by the stuck relay. Not sure why the relay failed but when I shake it, it flops as if the spring is broke or lost its temper maybe. I don't know if the relay being located close to the muffler had any bearing on it's failure.

Neither the starter gear or ring gear looked torn up very much. A little burring of the ring gear but not so much as to cause a problem. That being said, I installed a new starter this mourning and it wouldn't engage so I may be in for more aggravation than I figured. It started snowing and my hands went numb so I walked away from it for awhile

" Now ya got me thinkin' again darnit. You say the starter relay stuck, energizing the starter until the solenoid melted down. That might explain why the start wire to my solenoid was carrying current when it burned through. Except there was no starter relay to stick. (see my wiring diagrams) I suppose the ignition switch could have stuck in the start position but there is a neutral safety switch and PTO safety switch in series with it, both of which should have been open while mowing.

Bet you don't like the price of that new starter!
Sedgewood "

Sedgewood, you more than anyone knows every thing about your tractor, seeing you had to rebuild the whole thing, but I do have one comment. Your logic wiring diagram says it was derived from PT's wiring diagram. I can tell you that PT did not show the start relay in their diagram for the 1430. One other thought. Seems you and I who live in the same neighborhood are the only ones with fires. Maybe it's one of those bermuda triangle kind of things. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[eambrose]

Hey Guys - if it were some sort of internal short directly grounding the Battery cable due to a defect - that would cause it to simply burn up without even spinning the starter motor. The cable runs directly from the battery to the starter right? Any inline fuse in the cable (I doubt it). Has anyone checked if Deutz has had problems of this type?

I kind of doubt chaff ignited and caused a fire like yours Sedgewood.

 

[Sedgewood]

<font color="red"> But a question. If the starter solenoid sticks, and therefore the starter is spinning, without load, or even accelerated by the engine, how much current does it draw? Is it enough to melt the wire? </font>

Hmm... I took a look back at my burned wire pictures [1] [2] to remind me that the burned through positive cable was also carrying current when it burned through. But why was the start wire, also visible in the pictures, carrying current too - there are three contacts in series with it that all should have been open, at least at time of ignition? I don't think the no load starter would draw enough to burn through the cable. [3] shows positive cable insulation still intact at the battery (except for some bubbling from flames licking up from below). Wouldn't the entire cable heat up if it were excess current flow that burned it through? And the negative cable too?

<font color="red"> On either of your starters, is the starter gear torn up? </font> Not mine - it looked just fine as did the flywheel. As far as I can remember, when I turned the key off the engine stopped normally - I didn't hear the starter continuing to turn (off course the mower was making a racket as it spun down so maybe the starter noise was masked by that).

BTW, I was able to get the solenoid replaced with an aftermarket unit - the starter was (and is) fine. Terry had quoted me $960 for a new unit!

Sedgewood

 

[Sedgewood]

<font color="red"> Your logic wiring diagram says it was derived from PT's wiring diagram. I can tell you that PT did not show the start relay in their diagram for the 1430. </font>

Are you referring here to a start relay in addition to the starter solenoid? There is no additional relay on mine.

<font color="red"> One other thought. Seems you and I who live in the same neighborhood are the only ones with fires. Maybe it's one of those bermuda triangle kind of things. </font> Now there's a scary thought - I'd better get that fire extinguisher mounted. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sedgewood

 

[Sedgewood]

<font color="red"> Hey Guys - if it were some sort of internal short directly grounding the Battery cable due to a defect - that would cause it to simply burn up without even spinning the starter motor. The cable runs directly from the battery to the starter right? Any inline fuse in the cable (I doubt it). Has anyone checked if Deutz has had problems of this type? </font>

I haven't checked with Deutz but they've been selling this series of engines world wide for over 10 years. That should be enough time for them so sort out any design problems that serious. I'd like to think the problem was something external to their engine.

<font color="red"> I kind of doubt chaff ignited and caused a fire like yours Sedgewood. </font>

The fire investigator led me to believe chaff is a leading cause of ag equipment fires. But somehow I don't think it was the cause of my fire. If a pile of chaff or mouse nest had overwintered on the muffler it might ignite. But I didn't find anything to indicate that had happened.

Sedgewood

 

[RegL]

I'm back in business. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. After a couple days of fiddling around the fix was not to bad. A new relay ( the one Sedgewood doesn't have ) and a new solenoid on the starter. Total cost $140..

I have just one more little thing to keep in mind if you have to replace the starter. Yesterday when I first went to the auto electric shop, to save time and travel ha ha, I bought a new starter rather than have them rebuild the old one. It had different numbers but looked the same and the tech at the shop thought it would work. It bolted in perfectly but when I tried to start the tractor it made a terrible noise and would only crank the engine about a half turn. Called Terry to pick his brain and the first thing he said was," did you count the teeth on the new starter? Bosch uses 2 different drive gears." Well, you guessed it. Old starter has 9 teeth and new starter has 11.

 

[pajoube]

Hope you didn't do any damage with the wrong starter.
That sure has been a good learning experience.
PJ