American made tractors?

[WilliamBos]

I don't quite get it. I think we have a pretty global economy. Pretty much anything I buy comes from a supply chain that consists of many many countries.

There are trade agreements negotiated between countries. Overall they seem to work just fine. We sell you stuff from Canada, you sell us stuff from the USA. No global government required. What am I missing?

Sure with freer markets there is change and some new industries start and others go away. Change is constant regardless however. Its the nature of the beast. It does cause hardship to some individuals but in the end the economy grows, people prosper. In the early 1900s 50% of employment was connected with farming. 50 years later it was 5%. The economic well being of the overall population was much better off for the change.

Personally, I buy goods and services that I believe provide me the best value for my money - quality, service, features etc. In doing so I reward excellence, make the market more competitive, and send a message to those whose products I don't buy to do better. It encourages continuous improvement - by all vendors - local and global. All of the collectively improve and produce better goods and services to gain my business the next time around. Were I to 'subsidize' my decision, based on something other than purely economic decisions, then I distort the efficiency of the market. Yes I might allow some companies to survive longer because I bought their Made in Canada or Made in USA goods - but at the end - they have to compete with global vendors anyway. I would do them a disservice to buy their goods if those made by others were better.

I don't care really where the company is headquartered or where the investors or CEO lives. Investors have access to pretty much all markets. US and Canadian investors can invest in many overseas companies right on the NYSE through American Depository Reciepts.

The economy of the world is tied with our local economies.... because ... together we make the world economy. What is good for all of us, is also good for us individually.

My $0.02 and worth exactly what you paid for it!

I agree. And we can all benefit from it. Look at all the cool and very useful things those cool dutch farmers have brought over with them, some of which is way better engineered and way better built than the stuff you find in NA. Companies like Veenhuis, Peecon, Vicon, just to name a few. And now some of these things have dealers in NA, so just from that alone we have gained.

If you are going to buy locally only, you have to do more than Buy American. For that to work, you have to literally buy what is produced in your town, and nothing else. In some cases, I think it is way too late for that. We have now entered a global economy, and as long as we all play fair, it will be good for all of us.

JMHO.

 

[redneckford]

Mr. Will that all sounds good but how do we trust but verify that others are playing fair and who gets to define the word fair----Some have social medicine some have government owned industries----Some have "Prisoners' build products for export----Before Ford quit building tractors in Romeo Michigan they were building 5900's in Mexico-----They were $5000 less expensive than a 56/6610 built in Romeo----The biggest difference in cost was labor cost-----Do you really want your people to live in the conditions that people in Mexico that work in that plant live in----No MEDICAL CARE no retirement ----no money to buy a car or a TRACTOR----At least Henry Ford understood when he built the assembly line that the greatest benefit was that the assembly line employees could afford to buy what they built!!! You guys have social medicine we have social security are they equal?? According to the news today American workers cost GM $1500-$2000 more per vehicle than does their Factories in Canada due to health care cost alone No wonder we can't build a Compact Tractor in America-----We Demand a higher standard of living---Bathrooms in the House etc. than do factories in other parts of the world-----We should pay for that standard of living and not allow others to exploit their people for LESS---I am not against trade just do not blame the workers for all the problems in this country. After all they are the ones that DO THE WORK! This is not political this is a cry for a solution!!!! Sometimes answers come from the darnedest places

 

[tallyho8]

We have now entered a global economy, and as long as we all play fair, it will be good for all of us. JMHO.

Since the Big 3 American auto worker gets paid $73 an hour in wages and benefits and the Korean auto worker only gets paid about $9 in wages and benefits, I am not sure who is not playing fair, but I know it will not be good for all of us. Before long the American auto worker won't be working.

 

[canoetrpr]

Ever since the industrial revolution, lower skilled jobs have moved to where the overall cost of production is lowest.

This has not inhibited either us or you from increasing our standard of living further since the beginning of the industrial revolution because we have innovated and workers have moved, over time, to higher skilled occupations, with higher wages. The GDP of our economies has grown nicely as a result.

This is the key fact that is lost when protectionist rhetoric is spoken: ECONOMICS IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME. There is not a fixed amount of wealth that the world has which needs to be divided up. The pie is growing all the time. We all benefit from a bigger pie.

The pie grows biggest when we allow trade to occur as freely as possible and for capital to move as freely as possible

There is no question that change like this causes hardship for individuals. It always has. As a society, we must recognize that by providing temporary assistance to workers that are affected and to provide them the tools to get back on their feet - retraining, new careers etc.

Trying instead to have a protectionist view of the world is futile. Ultimately it harms the worker it tries to protect by not forcing him to accept the eventuality.

It is also a myth that workers in developing countries like India, China and Mexico live desperate lives with no health care or social services. These are the very best jobs in many of these countries. The allow for the growth of a new middle class. This is a middle class who as their incomes grow, will want the same things that we do. We will sell to them, they will sell to us. The cost of labour is only part of the cost of production.

The other day the Canadian Autoworkers Union president was on the radio and said that labor was 10% of the total cost of production of an automobile to GM. He said that even if the workers worked for free, GMs problems would not be solved.

Clearly there are more things that are wrong with this picture than meet the eye and simply blaming unions for their problems is naive. Clearly it is not an issue of where the goods are produced that is the problem in the auto industry as labour costs are not dis-similar between the big 3 and Honda/Toyota (BTW: Labour ain't cheap in Japan either!).

I'd like to tell you that all is well and the American and Canadian worker will be just fine despite what is going on today in the movement of manufacturing work. Unfortunately I cannot. The reason I cannot is because neither of our countries is investing nearly enough in higher education of our children. New industries are spawned by innovation (look at software an hardware for example). America has always lead the world through innovation. Innovation requires a highly educated core innovator workforce.

The biggest problem in our countries is that THIS core is shrinking. Why? Over the last 50 years or so, if you look at the industries that have generated a lot of the wealth, a LOT (not all) of the innovation has been done by immigrants - many from India and China who came here for a better life. The problem we face today is that many who would otherwise continue to come here seeking a better life are finding it at home and keeping their brains with them. To counter, we are not investing enough in education in our children nor valuing higher education enough to make them want it.

If you doubt what I say, I wish you had the opportunity to take a look a the IBM or Microsoft Fellows that exist. These are the TOP innovators of our day. You would immediately note the percentage of them that were not born in North America. It is far far higher than the percentage of the general workforce. These folk create the industries that employ the rest of us and you need a new generation of them if this cycle is to continue.

So if you are looking for a solution, here would be mine: ENCOURAGE immigration - particularly of highly educated people. Invest heavily in higher education for all who are able - not only those who can afford it. Unfortunately the existing trend is quite the opposite - immigration of all forms is being discouraged. The number of H1-B visas is constantly under protectionist pressure to be reduced. The cost of college education is well beyond the means of many who can afford it. IMHO - these are the real problems that need to be solved.

 

[WilliamBos]

Since the Big 3 American auto worker gets paid $73 an hour in wages and benefits and the Korean auto worker only gets paid about $9 in wages and benefits, I am not sure who is not playing fair, but I know it will not be good for all of us. Before long the American auto worker won't be working.

The guys at Honda do not make that much. The hourly wage is eqwual, but the benefits are not. Oh yeah, they are just as happy as other auto workers, and there is no union. Look at who is having trouble. I am a die hard GM fan. Things need to change. The greed is the first place.

The techs who fix these care do not make as near the money as they people who build them, and the techs have a huge overhead of their own, unlike the plant workers. What is wrong with that picture??

 

[redneckford]

Ever since the industrial revolution, lower skilled jobs have moved to where the overall cost of production is lowest.

It is also a myth that workers in developing countries like India, China and Mexico live desperate lives with no health care or social services. These are the very best jobs in many of these countries. That allow for the growth of a new middle class. This is a middle class who as their incomes grow, will want the same things that we do. We will sell to them, they will sell to us. The cost of labor is only part of the cost of production.

So if you are looking for a solution, here would be mine: ENCOURAGE immigration - particularly of highly educated people. Invest heavily in higher education for all who are able - not only those who can afford it. Unfortunately the existing trend is quite the opposite - immigration of all forms is being discouraged. The number of H1-B visas is constantly under protectionist pressure to be reduced. The cost of college education is well beyond the means of many who can afford it. IMHO - these are the real problems that need to be solved.

Thank You Canoetrpr BUT----But many many immigrates that are coming into the southern US seem to have strong backs and (weak) untrained minds-----They live 30 to the house make-- no investment--- no car-- no tractor--- no nothing--- cause they work for the bare minimum and put price pressure on local wages that people need to earn to have a car a house a plate of food and care for a family. I hear all the time that we can't get employees to do these jobs----You can't when you don't even pay them enough to get a car get gas and INSURANCE----Many immigrates do not want to play by the rules---things like Drivers licenses and INSURANCE! A true Capitalist system can't compete with socialist systems where we pay to subsidize their system and they put up tariffs to protect their manufacturing segment----Fair is Fair---the definition is different depending on who you are talking to and their situation in Life! I still think we can build a high quality long lasting CUT in America!

 

[WilliamBos]

Thank You Canoetrpr BUT----But many many immigrates that are coming into the southern US seem to have strong backs and (weak) untrained minds-----They live 30 to the house make-- no investment--- no car-- no tractor--- no nothing--- cause they work for the bare minimum and put price pressure on local wages that people need to earn to have a car a house a plate of food and care for a family. I hear all the time that we can't get employees to do these jobs----You can't when you don't even pay them enough to get a car get gas and INSURANCE----Many immigrates do not want to play by the rules---things like Drivers licenses and INSURANCE! A true Capitalist system can't compete with socialist systems where we pay to subsidize their system and they put up tariffs to protect their manufacturing segment----Fair is Fair---the definition is different depending on who you are talking to and their situation in Life! I still think we can build a high quality long lasting CUT in America!

Wow!! What a difference from our country to yours. I know of a huge amount of immigrants who a licensed doctors in their homeland, but because of our society over here, they are driving taxi cabs and cramming many families into one house to make it. And we have a doctor shortage because of this.

UPDATE - Licensed, and practiced medicine in their homelands, accomplished doctors.

 

[redneckford]

Wow!! What a difference from our country to yours. I know of a huge amount of immigrants who a licensed doctors in their homeland, but because of our society over here, they are driving taxi cabs and cramming many families into one house to make it. And we have a doctor shortage because of this.

My GrandFather had a Doctor like that----All he did was dispense medicine---Take a Fifth of this whiskey and call me in a few days!!!! I think he trained to be a doctor in Europe somewhere----(Training is good LEARNING IS BETTER)Like I said he was my GrandFathers Doctor not mine----I'm still Alive!!!---I go to Houston where Doctors from all over the world "Practice" Medicine---kinda like lawyers around here that "Practice" Law---they call them Professionals---some call them thief's!!! THANK GOD MY WIFE CAN AFFORD INSURANCE!!!!!

 

[canoetrpr]

redneckford - Japan has a current account surplus of 100 billion dollars. S. Korea has a 30 or so billion dollar current account surplus. This seems to be where many CUT imports are built.

How is the USA subsidizing them in anyway?

The CAW union boss I was telling you about earlier was also arguing that the reason for the demise of the big 3 was because Japan's market wasn't sufficiently open enough - presumably because he believes that the Japanese are eager to sell their Toyotas, Nissans and buy Humvees.

I do not argue that the fact that some tarriff barriers still exist distorts the benefits of free trade. However, is is a long long shot away from why manufacturing is shifting away from the USA.

Back in the 80s and early 90s the big three used the argument that the imports built elsewhere where labour was cheaper and people worked 100 hrs a week barefoot. Thats why they were losing market share. Now they are building right here in N.America - paying similar wages and benefits.

The real blame lies with management and the lack of strategic thinking on the part of these companies. Unions and the trade barriers, while they exist, have a much smaller impact.

I do also (slightly) blame the buyer who buys their product knowing that it is inferior simply in order to 'support' the product simply because it is local, and the government that throws business a corporate welfare bone. I understand the buyers sentiment in wanting to support what his friends product. We would not be human if we were not sensitive to the plight of those around us whose jobs were at risk. But ... I cannot forgive the sentiment of the government and the taxpayer when the choose to reward inferior companies. You don't see businesses that are doing well on their own in the corporate welfare line asking for a bailout. The governments job should be to bear the bigger picture in mind.

I do agree with you that a fantastic product - CUT or car can be made in the American and N. America. You can't do it however if mediocrity is rewarded just because it is local.

 

[intel]

"My GrandFather had a Doctor like that----All he did was dispense medicine---Take a Fifth of this whiskey and call me in a few days!!!!"

Now, that is a doctor i like to have