Amsoil OE ??

[clemsonfor]

No way would I even run some Group III synthetics .. Group 111 super tech isn't even close to a group IV synthetic.. It all depends on the Group III oil.. Super tech is blended to be a cheap synthetic

1 reason Amsoil OE motor oil is cheaper than the signature series oil, because OE oil has 7.9 TBN.. The signature series oil has 12.6 TBN..

But its not really any cheaper than M1 oil. Maybe a dollar or two a jug is all.

 

[RUSSELL SHETTLE]

TBN is part of the additive package, by default, if an oil has a "super duper" add pack, it will have a higher level of TBN.

You have been extremely educational!

This clarifies TBN for me I think. I thought TBN stood for "Base Oil" only with no additives, or am I still wrong about it?

A higher TBN might allow for longer drain intervals, gas or diesel, but whether that can be done or not depends on other factors as well, like possible viscosity break down, fuel dilution, coolant leak in the oil, excessive wear metals, etc. For instance, you can have a 15w40 going out of grade and becoming a 30w due to viscosity break down, yet the TBN level is still adequate. The oil would be due to be changed because of the viscosity break down. And it can happen even to a synthetic.

"Each situation is different" as you say. Viscosity is the most important factor of an oil for "X" application. Is that a reasonably correct statement?

Theoretically, if we eliminate coolant leaks, cylinder blow-by gasses, any kind of contaminate, etc., that should leave only "Heat". Would you say that Heat in general is a primary factor of viscosity breakdown?

For example in my case: The Tuff Torq K46 Hydrostatic transmission. There are no potential contamination sources accept for a potentially small amount of atmospheric moisture entered through a breather. Heat appears to be the only potential factor but of course, we would have to first agree that excessive heat alone is a huge factor of viscosity breakdown. Agree or disagree?

Am I correct to think that; a viscosity breakdown is realized when an oil becomes too hot, it thins out? It boils off in time, cools....and results in a higher viscosity overall (thickens)?

So... Base + Additives = TBN

I'm assuming I'm correct so please correct me. In conclusion then... is it safe to say that TBN makes up the "total" volume? I think I'm slightly confused on that.

 

[DarkBlack]

You might want to re-read my post. I said.... "up to 25%". That would include 10%, 15%, 20%, etc. Sorry I didn't break it down for you. I don't have the specs on every oil that is in the market place to give you an absolute percentage in each of them. But I would gather from the question and the way it was presented, "as you say", that you are not looking for the answer, only wanting to spar with me. Sorry, not going to bite. When I became a man, I put away childish things.

But I stand by the assertion, and my comment fell right in the middle, off the cuff, to this. As per this from Machinery Lubrication....

All engine oils have two components: additives and base oil. The total volume of additives in motor oil can range from 20 to 30 percent, depending on brand, formulation and application.

Engine Lubrication Basics

No need for me to re-read you post as you suggest, as it read quit easily.
I'm not 'sparring' with you, I'm just asking you for some examples of brands/products of what you posted. Is that asking too much?
Why would you post such things if you didn't want reader's interest?
I do tend to think your #'s are too high, but you wrote, "I stand by the assertion".
Can you at least post that one particular motor oil you are referencing as being 25% additives?

 

[aczlan]

No need for me to re-read you post as you suggest, as it read quit easily.
I'm not 'sparring' with you, I'm just asking you for some examples of brands/products of what you posted. Is that asking too much?
Why would you post such things if you didn't want reader's interest?
I do tend to think your #'s are too high, but you wrote, "I stand by the assertion".
Can you at least post that one particular motor oil you are referencing as being 25% additives?

Not the OP, but a quick google search for "motor oil additive package percent of oil" returned the following:

Engine oil is comprised of two basic components—base oils and additives. The base oils constitute 70 to 85 percent of the total, while additives round out the remaining 15 to 25 percent.

Although additives are typically only 15 to 25 percent of the makeup of motor oil, they can impact
a lubricant’s performance much more than the base oil. For instance, mineral based motor oil with
a very good additive package can easily outperform certain synthetic motor oils with mediocre
additive packages

Aaron Z

 

[Copperhead]

Russell, TBN stands for Total Base Number, not base oil. It is the additive that controls harmful acids that are a result of combustion and condensation. No... Base oil + additives does not "equal" TBN. TBN is an additive to the base oil along with the other additives. It counteracts harmful acids. Typically, oils that are intended for extended drain intervals will also have higher TBN packages. The Amsoil OE, for instance, has a TBN of 7.9. The XL version has a TBN of 9. The Signature version, a TBN of 12.6. Each oil is rated for different drain intervals, from shortest to longest in this example. To go longer requires a higher TBN to control acids. TAN or "Total Acid Number" increases the longer the oil is in use. There is a point where acids overtake the ability of the oil to control them. The TAN gets larger over time, so therefore, it takes a higher TBN package to control those when one is doing extended drain intervals.

The primary conditions that lead to viscosity break down is fuel dilution, shearing, and heat. Shearing is literally the molecules of the oil, or more specifically, viscosity improvers (yet another component of the additive package) are "sheared" or ripped apart, knocking the oil into a lower viscosity rating. It happens in any motor, but usually not noticeable except under high stress conditions. Any condensation that might get in thru a breather on a hydraulic application will not lead to viscosity break down. It might lead to other reactions with the hydraulic fluid itself if condensation is at a high level. But I would say the risk is extremely rare unless you are going thru actual water environments. Like fording streams with your pickup. Water would enter the breather if one was not careful.

And oil "boiling" or more accurately, "cook off" or "burn off" leads to a increase in the viscosity. The oil thickens. All oils have NOACK ratings. The lower the NOACK rating, the more resistant to oil cookoff and oil viscosity thickening as a result. For instance, something like the Pennzoil conventional "yellow bottle" 5w30 has a NOACK of around 14. The Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 synthetic has a NOACK of 6.6, or one of the lowest in the market place. Even lower than the Amsoil Signature 5w30 synthetic at 7.5. And the Penn Ultra is a Group III synthetic from Natural Gas, where as the Amsoil Signature is primarily a Group IV. That should help eliminate some of the Group III vs Group IV debate BS. The Penn Ultra will resist oil "cook off", "burn off", or whatever one wants to call it, better than the Amsoil Signature Series, at least in a 5w30. Didn't analyze other viscosities to see how they compared. But that is not to imply that Amsoil Signature is an inferior oil, it is a very good oil.

For the GM crowd, one of the requirements to meet the dexos1 spec is that the oil must have a NOACK rating of less than 12. Just an FYI. It is generally going to take a synthetic blend at a minimum to come in under the 12 NOACK that dexos1 demands. If you check the "approved" dexos1 oil listings, they are all synthetic blends or full synthetics.


Nope, DarkBlack. Not going to waste time digging around for a particular brand that is dead on 25%. You want to know which brand does, then do your own research. I specifically stated "up to 25%", not dead on 25%. Other oil industry related articles confirmed that general assessment. So I am not compelled to do the research and locate that one particular brand and viscosity, out of thousands, that is exactly 25%. Not sure why folks are stuck on the 25% number when I specifically gave a general "up to 25%" comment and the industry articles have also generalize 15-25% in one, and 20-30% in another. I think my general "up to 25%" (which was an assessment done "on the fly" or "off the cuff") fits nicely in what the lubrication industry articles state. I think we are getting into a rut here with this 25% thing.

 

[RUSSELL SHETTLE]

Russell, TBN stands for Total Base Number, not base oil. It is the additive that controls harmful acids that are a result of combustion and condensation. No... Base oil + additives does not "equal" TBN. TBN is an additive to the base oil along with the other additives.

Actually, I did some research over the net before I got to read your reply. Thanks again for the fantastic. It's coming together...

TBN or by name, just what it stands for: Total "Base" Number is rather misleading. We talking about "alkalinity" to some degree or it's about that. It's a counteractive property of the oil to fight off acid and it's ability to continue doing that reduces over time because the additive becomes used up so the effective TBN comes down over time and when it reaches an equilibrium to that of induced acid.. it's time to change the oil.

Now I know why diesel oils come with a higher TBN, because diesel engines produce more blow-by acidic deposits along with soot.

And oil "boiling" or more accurately, "cook off" or "burn off" leads to a increase in the viscosity. The oil thickens.

Yes, I know it thickens like when you boil too much water out of your oatmeal! ha ha but doesn't it also become quite thin at the point when it's too hot and that's when you can also lose protection due to reduced viscosity at that end? or so I thought...

NOTE: My theory about thinning at high temps goes along with the common symptom about riding mowers losing forward motion after 20 minutes or so of run time from worn out oil in their hydrostatic transmissions. They do get hot and I think the oil is thinning to the point it can no longer pressurize. The viscosity becomes extremely low at that high temp point because it has lost the ability. (Just my theory). When it cools, yea.. it turns back to oatmeal!

I've read about the NOACK ratings as well and it's like you say; there are so many other factors that determine an oil's overall quality.

The primary conditions that lead to viscosity break down is fuel dilution, shearing, and heat. Shearing is literally the molecules of the oil, or more specifically, viscosity improvers (yet another component of the additive package) are "sheared" or ripped apart, knocking the oil into a lower viscosity rating. It happens in any motor, but usually not noticeable except under high stress conditions. Any condensation that might get in thru a breather on a hydraulic application will not lead to viscosity break down. It might lead to other reactions with the hydraulic fluid itself if condensation is at a high level. But I would say the risk is extremely rare unless you are going thru actual water environments. Like fording streams with your pickup. Water would enter the breather if one was not careful.

I had to add this one in. "Fuel Dilution" That's understandable by itself and not a factor in what I'm interested in at the moment. "Shearing" the additive is getting beat to death, so to speak. Also understandable and that may be a factor to my interest. "Heat" was what I though to be the only thing.

By the way: The K46 Hydrostatic trans uses regular oil or the recommended 5w50 synthetic. I was able to talk to a rep at Tuff Torq this morning, asking the question about the use of "ANY" 5w50 synthetic on the marked. He said "any" will do. So I've been contemplating on which one to use. I figure, in this application, I don't need a high TBN. I would think that I should be more interested in an oil formulated more specifically for shear and heat protection.

Again, I appreciate all your replies and input to this subject. I've learned a lot. It is obvious you know what you're talking about. What is your occupation, may I ask?

 

[Copperhead]

You would have to reach some very serious heat temps to cause an oil to lose it's effectiveness. While the perception of the oil "thinning" at high temps is one thing, what is actually going on is another. Sure, oil pours faster when it is hot than when it is cool, and gives the impression of being thinned out, but the molecular structure of the oil itself has not changed. Molecules of the oil don't change unless, like I stated before, they are sheared. You have flash points of motor oils that are several magnitudes of temperature higher than what the engine itself could survive without coming apart.

And one has to ask, why are 20w oils providing more than adequate protection in modern gas engines, and why are 30w oils providing more than adequate protection in commercial heavy diesels in semi trucks that are pulling upwards of 80,000 lb gross weights nationwide, year round, mountains, deserts, etc? Heavy commercial diesels currently are factory filled with 10w30 oils and that is the OEM recommended viscosity.

And hydraulic systems can be pretty brutal on oils. Depending on the application, the demand on the oil can be pretty challenging and the oil composition has to be good. One of the best examples, is automatic transmissions, which are just another hydraulic system. Most of those are running 10w oils and put under some pretty demanding situations. Oxidation is one of the killers of a auto trans or hydraulic oil. There has to be significant additives to control oxidation. But any hydraulic system, oxidation is probably more of a problem than shearing. Even more than temperature issues. Oxidation can severely effect the ability of the oil to do what it needs to do under pressure. Hydrostatic transmissions and gear boxes are really no different. The thing is, there is lot of churning of the oil going on which can cause a significant amount of air molecules to be interlaced in the oil. As it increases, this oxidation dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the oil and component failure is liable to happen. That is why most hydraulic and auto trans fluids contain a significant amount of additives to control oxidation. So you are quite correct, TBN is not a primary factor in hydraulic oils.

There are some hydrostatic transmissions and gear boxes on some equipment like zero turn mowers and such, that specify a regular 10w30 motor oil in them. My JD zero turn is one of them. I make sure that I select a synthetic 10w30 that has very strong anti-oxidation additives as part of the add pack. The oil blenders will usually state the requirements the oil meets on their data sheets from their online sites. If it meets various hydraulic specs, then it is a good choice for that purpose and probably has a healthy amount of anti-oxidation additives. I have grown fond of the Amsoil 10w30/30w 4 stroke oil for my lawn mower needs. No viscosity improvers in it than can shear, and it has excellent anti-oxidation properties that make it a great oil for the hydrostatic drives on the mower. Makes it nice having only to use one oil for both motor and drives.

My occupation? I own and operate a commercial trucking operation. Grew up on a farm and also was part of the family farm tiling, dozing, etc operation. Just a farm boy that supplemented some home grown common sense with a couple of technical degrees from college and now fight the daily onslaught of government regulations and other nonsense trying to limit my ability to make a living.

 

[Garandman]

We use Rotella T6 Synthetic in just about everything.

Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella

 

[WilliamBos]

We use Rotella T6 Synthetic in just about everything.

Shell Rotellaｮ Products - Shell Rotella

We run T6 5W40 in everything, atv, rototiller, power washer, tractor, but apparently VVT (Vsriable Valve Timing) and 40W dont get along.

 

[RUSSELL SHETTLE]

Oxidation is one of the killers of a auto trans or hydraulic oil. There has to be significant additives to control oxidation. But any hydraulic system, oxidation is probably more of a problem than shearing. Even more than temperature issues.

Bussy! Just now responding... Oxidation is not something I ever thought about, knew about or had much awareness of, in regard to oil.

You would have to reach some very serious heat temps to cause an oil to lose it's effectiveness. While the perception of the oil "thinning" at high temps is one thing, what is actually going on is another. Sure, oil pours faster when it is hot than when it is cool, and gives the impression of being thinned out, but the molecular structure of the oil itself has not changed. Molecules of the oil don't change unless, like I stated before, they are sheared. You have flash points of motor oils that are several magnitudes of temperature higher than what the engine itself could survive without coming apart.

This is encouraging because I'm always changing oil before it has sheared itself apart, so to speak. It's also encouraging because I don't drive or operate anything that would cause such a high heat condition. I'm more aware of it, in other words: One time my truck was realizing a radiator problem. It was plugging up and my temp guage began rising. This was during Summertime heat of the day and I was on my way home with 25 miles to go. I immediately turned on the heat with the blower running full speed like it was 20 degrees outside. Of course I rolled down the windows. It worked..... the temp gauge came right down. I knew it would. I've see the problem before. The point is: I'm aware of heat and I operate a machine or vehicle with that always in mind.

Molecules of the oil don't change unless, like I stated before, they are sheared.

That's a take home statement!

There are some hydrostatic transmissions and gear boxes on some equipment like zero turn mowers and such, that specify a regular 10w30 motor oil in them. My JD zero turn is one of them. I make sure that I select a synthetic 10w30 that has very strong anti-oxidation additives

This is a new piece of learning me as well. I need to learn what those additives are and how to look for them in the specs.

I have grown fond of the Amsoil 10w30/30w 4 stroke oil for my lawn mower needs. No viscosity improvers in it than can shear, and it has excellent anti-oxidation properties that make it a great oil for the hydrostatic drives on the mower. Makes it nice having only to use one oil for both motor and drives.

I was delighted to read this statement because I had ordered 4 quarts of this oil 3 days ago directly from Amsoil and it arrived yesterday. I have a Toro Snowblower, a power washer, a walk behind along with my new JD riding mower. Reading Amsoil's statement description and benefits about this oil sold me. I'll get more later because I had already changed the oil in my Snowblower and I may or may not even get to use this winter.

But for the K46 Trans I had just purchased 3 quarts of Amsoil 5w50. There was only "one"... and it was their signature line. I don't know if I should even debate with myself to use otherwise, like going back to a 10w30 weight. Ironically, Amsoil has a specific oil in a 10w30 weight they say is ideal for Hydrostatic Transmissions.

So, I don't know what to do. Tuff Torq recommends the 5w50 but they also say it will run on the 10w30 and many have. I changed mine right away. Another indecision on my part.

I cut the grass this afternoon for the first time with the 5w50 Syn. It was smoother, quite and responsive. When I finished I nealt down and placed my hand on the trans to see how hot it was. It was hot but not burning hot. I expected it to feel much hotter but it wasn't.