Amsoil OE ??

[WilliamBos]

I guess what ever floats your boat... If you have an expensive truck, why skimp on oil ?? This is something I can't understand.. People pay big $$ for vehicles, yet, they refuse to pay for premium oil go go in the engine. There is a reason some oil cost $2.50 per qt and some cost $8.00 per qt.. You usually have to pay for quality

My Friday oil change cost me $60 for 6L of oil and $13.99 for the filter, I change my own oil. That'll be drained out in 2 months/7,500 km/4,700 miles and Ill start the process again. The truck is running synthetics front to rear, PSF is cold climate syn blend,when I change it next year, I'll go full synthetic.

GM calls for a synthetic blend or full synthetic, I go full synthetic because it does not cost much more, and the peace of mind when I crack the key at -45 to start the truck is well worth it.

 

[WilliamBos]

And on a Polaris ATV website, there are tons of people that spent 6/14 thousand bucks on a new toy, but want oil filters that only cost 4 bucks.
That just kills me LOLOLOLOLOL
And Will is right in the thick of all the oil threads

The filter for my atv also cost me $14, but its not a $2 Polaris filter thats marked up 500%. Same with the Rotella T6 5W40 that I run in it, light years better than the over priced Polaris gold.

 

[Copperhead]

I got sold on synthetics when the factory started putting synthetics in the trans a diffs on my commercial trucks from the factory. The component manufacturers will automatically extend the warranties from 500,000 miles to 750,000 miles on my heavy truck drive train components if synthetics are used. They don't give a rip if they are Group III or Group IV synthetics, so that should say something right there. The warranty extension is the same for either.

All my vehicle motor oils are a Group III / Group IV synthetic blend. Even use a Group II / Group IV blend in one application with very good results. There is hardly an oil on the market that claims to be a Group IV that does not also include a little Group III in the mix. Group III offers much better additive distribution and suspension in the motor oil than Group IV does.

And there we come back to additive package. The base oil is one thing, the additive package is what makes or breaks how well it works. So many are stuck on the base oil stuff, that they forget that up to 25% of a motor oil is additives that protects from oxidation, acids, etc and provides some very beneficial anti-wear properties and detergents to keep things clean and keep soot and insolubles in suspension. No base oil, irregardless of group, synthetic or not, provides everything, so they require additive package that matches the classification of the oil for the use it is intended for.

Base oil is clear as water. What you see for color in a motor oil is the additive package.

 

[RUSSELL SHETTLE]

I got sold on synthetics when the factory started putting synthetics in the trans a diffs on my commercial trucks from the factory. The component manufacturers will automatically extend the warranties from 500,000 miles to 750,000 miles on my heavy truck drive train components if synthetics are used. They don't give a rip if they are Group III or Group IV synthetics, so that should say something right there. The warranty extension is the same for either.

It does!

All my vehicle motor oils are a Group III / Group IV synthetic blend. Even use a Group II / Group IV blend in one application with very good results. There is hardly an oil on the market that claims to be a Group IV that does not also include a little Group III in the mix. Group III offers much better additive distribution and suspension in the motor oil than Group IV does.

And this is where I had originally miss-conceived on the whole subject: I had always thought otherwise.

And there we come back to additive package. The base oil is one thing, the additive package is what makes or breaks how well it works. So many are stuck on the base oil stuff, that they forget that up to 25% of a motor oil is additives that protects from oxidation, acids, etc and provides some very beneficial anti-wear properties and detergents to keep things clean and keep soot and insolubles in suspension. No base oil, irregardless of group, synthetic or not, provides everything, so they require additive package that matches the classification of the oil for the use it is intended for.

I had thought, going back to the mid 70's, that the base was the only thing that determined a synthetic, and that it was pure and complete by itself to handle everything, not needing anything added and that conventional only required additives. I had no knowledge of groups.

Base oil is clear as water. What you see for color in a motor oil is the additive package.

I did not know that

I've pretty much concluded that anything labeled "Full Synthetic" is good oil. What I don't know has to do with classifications. Are the variances with additives so different in synthetics that you have to pay attention to classification? In other words: Are you safe with purchasing any synthetic, keeping with the recommended viscosity range?

Put another way: If you wanted the ultimate synthetic protection would you go with a "racing grade" synthetic as long as the viscosity range was available? (Assuming that a racing grade, as labeled, is giving the best wear and heat protection)

 

[RUSSELL SHETTLE]

Copperhead:

From your quote:

so they require additive package that matches the classification of the oil for the use it is intended for.

The current classification "SN"....

I see this on most oils, or at least all the Full Synthetic oils I've been using, Mobil 1, Valvoline and Castrol Full Synthetics.

Is this what you mean? As long as you see "SN", you can do no better? or can you?

Note: I looked up oil classification for my own knowledge. I understand to a point: SA was the first going back to the 1920s. As the classification progressed the S? is in alphabetical sequence. "SN" came about around 2011, I believe it said.

But the question again: Is there anything you need to pay attention to beside "SN"?

 

[kenmac]

well, If you have all this super duper add package in a Group III oil ,and have very low TBN. Then you have nothing. Because you have nothing (or very little) to fight off the acids that come from the combustion process, etc,.. I would agree,that if you have a Group III oil with a super duper add package along with high TBN, You would have a very good Group III oil,, Better than a Group IV oil with high TBN ,but the rest of the add package being mediocre ,or not very good

 

[DarkBlack]

So many are stuck on the base oil stuff, that they forget that up to 25% of a motor oil is additives that protects from oxidation, acids, etc and provides some very beneficial anti-wear properties and detergents to keep things clean and keep soot and insolubles in suspension. No base oil, irregardless of group, synthetic or not, provides everything, so they require additive package that matches the classification of the oil for the use it is intended for.

Base oil is clear as water. What you see for color in a motor oil is the additive package.

Post a couple of motor oil brands/products that are 25% additives, as you say.

 

[Copperhead]

kenmac, TBN is part of the additive package, by default, if an oil has a "super duper" add pack, it will have a higher level of TBN. High TBN is a relative thing anyway. Thanks to ULSD diesel and such, there is not the need for such high TBN as in the past due to lower sulfur, resulting in less acid buildup. This is why, generally, CI-4 diesel oils usually have higher TBN than CJ-4 oils. When CI-4 was developed, we had higher sulfur in diesel. CJ-4 was developed with ULSD and emissions stuff in mind. The additive package is like a symphony. While each portion of the add pack has a unique purpose, the way the entire add pack is put together determines it's overall effectiveness.

A higher TBN might allow for longer drain intervals, gas or diesel, but whether that can be done or not depends on other factors as well, like possible viscosity break down, fuel dilution, coolant leak in the oil, excessive wear metals, etc. For instance, you can have a 15w40 going out of grade and becoming a 30w due to viscosity break down, yet the TBN level is still adequate. The oil would be due to be changed because of the viscosity break down. And it can happen even to a synthetic. True, the chances of it happening are less than with a conventional, but it can happen. Each situation is different, and the only way to know for sure is to do an occasion oil sample analysis. Most folks, if they follow normal OEM recommended drain intervals, don't really have a lot of worry about and oil analysis might not be cost effective. For those that want to exceed the OEM drain interval, it needs to be done incrementally with oil samples to make sure the oil is holding up.

Yes, the additive package determines the classification. Like SN or GF-5 for gassers and CJ-4 for diesels. Or any of the other dozens of specifications out there, like dexos1 for instance. Each classification has certain demands and requires an additive package that meets those needs. The base oil is the same, be it for a gas motor, a propane motor, natural gas motor, diesel motor, transmission, differential, hydraulic, etc, etc. Viscosities may be different for each application, but the base oil is just a base oil. You can have SN classification in everything from a 0w20 thru a 20w50. That add pack makes it a SN. Same for CJ-4 on the diesel side, whether it is for a 10w30 or a 15w40 or any other base oil viscosity. It has a CJ-4 add pack.

And some oil add packs are diverse enough to meet several classifications at the same time. Like most dexos1 oils are also SN and GF-5 rated oils.

Now true, different brands will add upon the minimum add pack for the specification. Like one having a little more TBN than another. Or one having more Zinc than another, or more calcium (detergent) than another, or more moly than another. Each one beneficial in their own way. But if an oil meets the minimum standard for the classification it is made for, it will do a good job. A stronger add pack would build upon the base classification in some way. For instance, the brand i use, they like to shore up the add pack with extra zinc and moly, both anti-friction elements, and even add in their own proprietary anti-friction concoction.

Currently, for gassers, SN and GF-5 are the top classifications. CJ-4 for diesel. But the next round of classifications are in the pipeline. PC-11A and PC-11B (both for diesel) will be showing up on shelves within the next year. PC-11A will NOT be backward compatible with current diesel classes, but PC11B will be. It is still up in the air whether they will just follow the progression and call PC-11B something like CK-4. API is already working on something beyond SN and ILSAC is working on going beyond GF-5, both for the gassers.

 

[Copperhead]

Post a couple of motor oil brands/products that are 25% additives, as you say.

You might want to re-read my post. I said.... "up to 25%". That would include 10%, 15%, 20%, etc. Sorry I didn't break it down for you. I don't have the specs on every oil that is in the market place to give you an absolute percentage in each of them. But I would gather from the question and the way it was presented, "as you say", that you are not looking for the answer, only wanting to spar with me. Sorry, not going to bite. When I became a man, I put away childish things.

But I stand by the assertion, and my comment fell right in the middle, off the cuff, to this. As per this from Machinery Lubrication....

All engine oils have two components: additives and base oil. The total volume of additives in motor oil can range from 20 to 30 percent, depending on brand, formulation and application.

Engine Lubrication Basics

 

[clemsonfor]

Well, this whole what is a "true" synthetic is a canard. It was something several years ago, but means virtually nothing today. Group III "faux" synthetics offer many great qualities, including a couple that are BETTER than Group IV PAO "true' synthetics. Actually, the best synthetics today are a mix of Group III and Group IV synthetics, taking advantage of the special qualities of each group. It is virtually a total waste of time playing the Group IV vs Group III thing. Even many of Amsoil's product line has a combination of Group III and Group IV. Even Amsoil is smart enough to not play in the Group III vs Group IV game, knowing full well that there are special qualities to each group that brings something to the party. And even Group IV "true" synthetics are made from natural gas. Well, actually ethylene gas that is derived from natural gas. Group IV PAO is just another variation on carbon chained molecules. Every base oil from a Group I thru a Group V is a carbon chain structure.

And, Amsoil makes NOTHING. They do not make one drop of synthetic base oil. They are a blender. The purchase base oil from Mobil, Shell, and other sources. They get their additives from the standard suppliers like Infineum and Lubrizol. Being a blender is not a bad thing, but it is what Amsoil is. Schaeffer, the brand I use the most, is also a blender. They have been putting out very good quality oils and greases longer than anyone else in N. America, since 1839. They even put together a special open gear lube that Shell could not replicate to meet a customer demand, so Shell just has Schaeffer make it for them.

And since the additive package makes up to 25% of most every motor oil, it is as critical as the base oil itself. I would take a Group III "faux" synthetic with a killer additive package long before I would consider a Group IV "true" synthetic with a mediocre add pack. And TBN is just one characteristic of the add pack. There is a lot more to the mix. Amsoil like to pile on the TBN to promote the longer oil change intervals. And TBN's main purpose is to control acid buildup in the oil. When you look at the other aspects of the add pack, it is not something that is heads and shoulders above anyone else. Zinc, Moly, Calcium, Sodium, and other aspects of the add pack and how the levels compliment the characteristics of the other components, including the quality of the viscosity improvers, has as much to do with motor oil performance as does the base oil.

Actually, some of the best oils are one that are a Group III/IV combination with a high quality add pack.

And if you do your research, oils and lubes made from whale oil are still classified as "true" synthetics, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I am not putting whale oil in my pickup. But regarding the Group III "faux" synthetic vs Group IV "true" synthetic.......

Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3

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