Amsoil

[Bird]

Very good point, Andy. In this particular case, I think the Amsoil is a good product, and apparently good people, and PaulB's experience is definitely a plus for the company. However, while that experience is a plus for the company in my opinion, it's no proof of anything to old skeptical folks like me, because in my prior profession, I learned that the "nicest" and most pleasant person to deal with you can find is a professional con artist; it's their stock in trade. And no, I don't think the Amsoil folks are, but as you said, they have to be biased a bit./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

 

[MChalkley]

No offense taken.

It does amuse me, though, that the detractors of synthetics' always say there's no "proof". Then, when the only "proofs" that can be proffered are given, the response always amounts to "Yeah, but...". If lab specs are given, all of which "prove" synthetics' superiority, the gripe is that they aren't "real world" tests. If "in the field" results are given, all of which "prove" the superiority of synthetics, the response is that the tests are "subjective" and don't "mean anything".

Petroleum products have one and only one advantage over synthetics: price per quart. It's a simple fact "known" by all the "experts" everywhere. There's never been a single test done by anyone of any type on any thing that even begins to insinuate otherwise. There's no room for discussion, debate, or argument, unless we want to allow hearsay and general opinion, at which point the whole exercise deteriorates into meaningless drivel. That's what I get tired of.

Now, as I've said many times before, if someone wants to argue the point that the superiority of synthetics doesn't provide them, in their circumstances, any useful benefits, that's fine. They may have a point - and only they can decide that. If a person's only issue is price per quart, then synthetics aren't for them. I think that's a very shortsighted approach, but everyone has a right to their own opinion. But I sure wish everyone would just say that's what it is, or that they don't know - anything but make up reasons with absolutely no basis in fact to justify a desire to save a little cash. There's nothing wrong with being cheap, in and of itself. I try to be cheap every place it's practical, myself. I personally think a person should choose carefully where he chooses to be cheap, though - for me, motor oil isn't the place. Just my opinion, of course. Based totally on meaningless drivel. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Mark

 

[MChalkley]

Bird - It's an excellent point - such a good one, in fact, that it's a double-edged sword that cuts both ways. Most of those who are detractors of synthetics are biased in their own right. At any rate, anyone who says synthetics aren't superior to petroleum won't quote any real data - there isn't any. It's ironic, though, that all the data proving otherwise is meaningless. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Mark

 

[richh]

I have and read all the posts now and have a couple a qust. What dose a qt. of amsoil cost? How ofen do you change it ?? Can you go longer miles/hrs. betewen changes?? how long ? On trucks [Ihave a ford turdo D] better mpg.?? how much?? Im one of those cheap guys use carqust oil [suapost to be made by valvolin] $1.00 qt.has all of the right rateings for CAT JD ECT. I my tractor I change it every 50 hrs. in stead of the recomended 100 hrs.THe thruck holds 13 qt. and i go 5000 miles. I im open to the idea of synthetics but could never justafi the cost. I do use motor kote one of those tfe super slipery addatives, get it at the logging congres every year, the test they show you [live not video] is somthing else. so this is just more drivel any feed back?? IM get a new L4610 and would like to treat her right, thanks
RICH

 

[Bird]

You're right, Mark. I've never seen any evidence that the synthetics are not good. But as to which specific brand is best; maybe Amsoil is. Certainly they will claim to be, but won't the other manufacturers claim the same thing? And the same thing is true of the petroleum products. And I called Quaker State's technical folks last summer and got a young man who was very nice and helpful, and he told me there's no problem with using their regular Quaker State petroleum oil in a diesel, even though it doesn't have the proper ratings; just that you'd need to change more frequently. I sure wouldn't do that. And, as I've said before, I'm convinced the synthetics are as good, or better, than the petroleum. What I'm not convinced of is that they are worth the extra cost unless the change interval is extended, and while I would love to extend the interval, I'm leary of doing that unless a person spent the time and money to do what you apparently have done; add additional filtration and use a lab regularly for an oil analysis. Of course, I think the lab analysis is the best way to go for big fleets, regardless of the type of oil used, but a bit impractical for me way out here in the boondocks. So, I continue to use what I know has worked well over many years and many vehicles, but I'll change in a heartbeat if I'm ever convinced it's cost effective.

Bird

 

[MChalkley]

Richh - Amsoil costs roughly $4.25/qt to dealers. I think it costs $20/yr to be a dealer - I don't remember exactly, but that's close. If you live in a populated area, you can probably find somebody like me who's a dealer and will sell it to you at cost if you just want to save the $20/yr. I think it's worth the money myself just to get the monthly "propaganda".

BTW, my views are now considerably more biased and mercenary than they were just a couple weeks ago. It seems that a reader of this board called Amsoil a while back and said he wanted to become a dealer. They asked him who his referring dealer was and he gave them my name. They put my dealer number on the paperwork they sent him, he became a dealer and bought some oil. Amsoil sent me a nice letter thanking me for my referral and a check for $1.14. So, now I'm a paid advocate. Just wanted everyone to know of the conflict of interest here. I don't want to ever be accused of being dishonest with you guys. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif It does make it a little difficult, though - I've always enjoyed saying I've never made a dime off of selling Amsoil. Now I'll have to say I've never made more than $1.14. Doesn't have quite the same punch... Well, I guess until I cash the check, I still haven't made it, have I? Hmmm. Something to think about. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I change the oil in my tractor at the recommended interval for several reasons. First, at the intervals and amounts we're talking about, it still amounts to very little money; second, tractors are used in very dirty conditions and I don't have bypass filtration on it; third, it usually takes so long to get enough hours to change it that I think it's "ready" anyway. If you use your tractor infrequently, and have petroleum oil in it, I dont' think you should ever let it go longer than a year between changes, because the oil itself deteriorates and evaporates much faster than synthetic.

In my trucks and cars, oil change intervals are a different story entirely. First of all, no matter what oil you use, it has to be kept clean. Using synthetics is no excuse for not changing filters at the recommended intervals. I use bypass filtration wherever possible and this keeps the oil far cleaner for far longer than standard full-flow filters can. For that reason, I only change the oil every 2-3 years or so on the truck and once a year on the car, no matter how many miles they've gone.

I think some of the additives provide friction reduction improvements similar to those provided by synthetic oil, but with the disadvantage that the carrier oil is still the weak link. If it gets exposed to extreme conditions, it will still fail. The "coatings" in the additives are there to compensate, but I feel like it's still just treating the symptom, not the disease.

Mark

 

[Anonymous Poster]

To clarify the point about brake failure from oil with extreme pressure additives or synthetic oil, the instructor indicated that this had a high likelihood of occurring if these lubricants were used in a gearbox with wet brakes. He said he had seen it several times and it was not pretty, in addition to the danger involved from the brakes suddenly seizing. He said the same gearbox manufactures that would rate their gearboxes 20% higher when using synthetic oil, would not warrant it for use if the gearbox had wet brakes. I remember him stressing the word “all” when he said that “All” brands of synthetic oil had these EP properties and would cause this problem. The instructor was not against synthetic oill, far from it. He praised its lubricating abilities and long life. The only things he pointed out as negatives were price and the wet brake problem.

Many of us tractor owners, especially those with HST, do not use our brakes much. They may become extremely important in an emergency situation however.

If there is a wet brake failure in a machine, the person repairing it may not realize it has anything to do with the lubricant. I would guess that a very small percentage of brake failures would get reported to a lubricant manufacturer.

This just may be another example of how one product may not be the best at all applications. Individual products designed for specific applications usually perform better at that application than the Swiss army knife products.

Andy

 

[MChalkley]

Bird - Now we're getting to a different subject entirely. You'll probably remember that I've scrupulously avoided getting into the "Amsoil vs. Mobil 1" debates. I don't know if one is better than the other or not. I can tell you that if Amsoil got more difficult to get hold of or bit the green weinie or something, I'd start using Mobil 1 without a seconds' lost sleep. I use Amsoil because they were among the first on the market, they do vast amounts of research, have largely been responsible for the 500 "me too" synthetics on the market nowadays, provide all kinds of biased "proof" that their products are among the best there is, and are just plain really good people to deal with, willing to help in any way they can at any time. I don't know where else I'd find that combination, so they're the company/product for me.

I agree with you about not being willing to take the Quaker State rep's suggestion, but I can tell you why he said what he did: One of the primary components of the diesel ratings for motor oil is their ability to handle soot contamination without losing lubricity. Oils without the diesel ratings don't do very well. But, if you change it more frequently the soot levels don't build up to the point that it causes the oil to fail. Now, that sounds like a reason "in the wrong direction" for oil analysis, to me.

As for analysis, pretty much everybody is in the boonies. You just have the lab mail you the tiny little bottles, and you fill 'em up when you want the oil checked, and drop 'em in the mail. That's all there is to it. If you really wanted to try an experiment, try taking the vehicle that costs you the most in oil right now, switch it over, then start doing analysis, and change it when the lab says it's anywhere near marginal. Either change your filters at the same interval as before or put bypass filtration on, whichever you prefer. Bypass filtration is best, of course, but a bit of a hassle for an experiment. Figure the cost of the analysis into the equation, too - maybe you'll feel the reams of info you get back from the lab is worth something to you in its own right, maybe not. If your fuel mileage or some other measureable quantity improves, factor the money saved there into the equation and take the longer life from friction reduction that the increased fuel mileage "proves" you've accomplished as "gravy".

Mark

 

[_RaT_]

Post deleted by Paddock

 

[_RaT_]

Oop's almost forgot my comment I was going to make about Amsoil. It seems that here in the West, Amsoil was once a big deal, but it appears to have all but disappeared, in fact its hard to find. The question that has occured to me though is this:

Dear Abby, the posts on the sensational internet site tractorsbynet, taut a product called Amsoil. I would like to know how often they change it? I'm sure someone has indicated it, but my patience with posts that deal with flag waving wore thin. Perhaps its at 3000, 5000 or 7500 miles or greater. I would venture to say that the Amsoil is about $3.00 to $4.00 a quart, x 10 or more quarts, @15000 to 25000 miles per year. Thats a fair chunk "o" change I still use Delo 15W-40, have hundreds of thousands of miles on my truck and wonder if it would be beneficial to use it. I'm sure that the synthetics are probably better then the old fossil types, in fact, I'll make a bet they are, I just wonder if there is a practical side to it. I see engine oil temp as a big bounus for the synthetics, but to be honest, I can't make my diesel get hot or even close to overheating (oil temp, taken into account). I've pulled boats up the freeway here in CA. in a headwind, doing 70mph in 106 degree heat with the AC on and I cannot overheat it. Is Amsoil snake oil or would it be something I should consider? Please Abby, I neeeeed to know. Muchos grassass in advance, Mark (Rat)