An Electric Lesson

[ddl]

The only reason you have a potential difference is that you have a difference in energy levels. Charge is what moves in a circuit once a force is applied to a complete circuit. Charge moves from one electron to the next electron pn down the line. By the time the charge completes the circuit path, the amount of charge is at zero energy level, thus the circuit is complete. With the correct equipment, we could even meaure a petential difference between electrons from one atom to the next atom of a conductor, whereas if the electrons moved, the potential difference would not change, which we know it does.

Dan L

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Dan,

At risk of getting my neck bit, or sounding too stupid--years ago I was taught that electricity was the flow of electrons down a wire. I think I like your story better. The electrons moving down the wire theory always bothered me, sounds too much like fission. Now using your atomic charge theory, can you define volts, watts and amps for me? Obviously, the number of electrons flowing past a given point will no longer apply.

SHF

 

[ddl]

The idea that no new electricity has been produced since when ever is an untrue statement. To believe that you have to beleive that a generator actually produces electrons. What a generator does do is change the energy form from one for to another. Rising the energy level, creating a potential difference between two conductors, thus we have a current flow, not current flowing. Thus if the energy is not used it is lost. Your getting shocked, remember that energy flows from a high potential to a low potential. On a three phase system, the merging current at the ground used to result in zero current, but with switching power supplies, the currents do not ad to zero anymore and you can have high currents on the return or ground line. That is one reason the ground wire is now the same size as the three phase wires. The other comment earlier about a system being three wires, "Hot" "return" and "ground". I bet you that the "return and the "ground" are connected together, thus one wire in real time. Also in three phase systems and a delta connection, you can have a wild leg, in order to have a common wire, but this wire is not common at all and is unbalanced, thus a lot of current in the common. Very dangerous.

Dan L

 

[cowboydoc]

Dan,
Fair enough and yes even with your more detailed post there are still a couple more pages that could be written just about the basics of electricity. That's why I said I didn't have time to write it all out. Didn't really think anyone cared so much. I said that the basic principle I thought we agreed on. Anyway just wanted to apologize if I sounded coarse.

 

[ddl]

Current has always been charge per time. If you read a text book carefully, they say this. Where things got confused is that if you know the charge in a circuit, you can determine the mount of electrons envolved with the charge. You may ask why do we need to know the amount of electrons involved? Well if we know the number of electrons, we can determine the strength of the magnetic field, remember that with an electron we have electron spin, each electron spinning around its axis producing a magnetic lines of force. As the charge increases in a circuit, the number of electrons involved increases and the magnetic field increases. If you look at all the equations that you mentioned, none of them use the number of electrons, just charge, voltage and resistance and time. What I really enjoy is hearing some one saying the current is fllowing. The question I have is that current is a velocity, charge/seconds, the question I ask is how does a velocity travel. As an example a car moves down the road at 60 miles/hour, a velocity. The 60 miles/hour is not moving down the road. Thus how can current be flowing which means moving, there is a difference between current flow and current flowing, I have never seen a text book that says current is flowing. One poster stated getting shocked from a ground wire. Remember that there is a potential difference from one electron to the next aomes electrons as we travel down the wire, not the electron. If the ground is not a proper ground, bad connection, we can have ground loops, which are potential differences on the ground wire, thus we can get shocked.

Dan L

 

[ddl]

no apology needed, I like to read your reponds to many subjects and have learn alot, just like most other posts. I have never found a dumb response only "interesting" responses. The one question I do have is do you live in IOWA or in the Northwest? If in Iowa, where?

Dan L

P.S. I wish every one registered on this group would put their job function or what it was, it halps in understanding their comments. You do and I did and others, wish all did.

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Dan,

Actually, I think where things get confused is with the plumbing analogy that is used to teach the theory. In this, volts, amps and watts are referenced to the flow of water through the pipe. I think a better description based on your theory would be the flow of heat through a solid metal rod. Now I just have to convert all the stuff I thought I knew to the new theory. Maybe then it'll finally make sense, because frankly, that plumbing thing stunk.

So, using the hot rod, let me see if this is right. Amps is the temperature at the fire end. Volts if the temperature at the end I'm holding and watts is the number of BTUs it takes to make me go "OW!" Is this correct?

SHF

 

[cowboydoc]

Hi Dan,
I'm from the Northwest and came out here to go to graduate school. After school I married a girl that was below me in school. She still had two years left so I started working around here with the intention of leaving when she was done. Well one thing led to another and here we still are. We still plan on moving out to the northwest, she's from Montana, in about 5-8 years. I have a good friend who is the team doctor for the University of Idaho and Wash. State Univ. He wants me to come out in about five years and start to take over his practice. Right now that's the plan. As far as Iowa goes we are by the Quad Cities. It's in the middle eastern part of the state by Illinois.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Dan,

I think were getting closer here, but still have a little ways to go.

<font color=blue>"we could even meaure a petential difference between electrons from one atom to the next atom of a conductor, whereas if the electrons moved, the potential difference would not change, which we know it does."</font color=blue>

The property of a conductor which allows it to pass electricity is the number of "free electrons". Those electrons in the valance band of the conductor. The electrons in this band are "free" to move from atom to atom. Each electron has a charge of 1.6019 x 10 -19 coulomb. Conduction in metals take place through the "motion" of electrons. A charge in motion (electron) constitutes a current.

If you have any doubt apply your view to the reactions in a battery or electroplating of metals.

Al

 

[ddl]

How do you deal with the cloud theory of electrons, where they form a cloud of electrons, the larger the charge the more electrons involved in the cloud. This principle adds to the theory of electron spin and the resulting magnetic field. Your idea of electric plating, in doing the plating one rod or material is destoryed. In a copper wire the makeup of the copper would change if the old idea of an electon leaving the circuit is replaced with one entering the circuit. If you remember from the circuit of a battery, a resistor and a switch, when the switch is closed electrons move but if you open and close the switch enough times, the chance of the switch opening before the electon enters is actually quite high. This would change the properties of the wire. The thing is we know that the cahnge in properties of the wire does not change. Thus this lead us back to the actual movement being charge and all equations deal with charge moving not electrons.

Dan L