Dirt Moving An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro

   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #61  
I like this because I'm a picture type of learner. James, you were at what appeared to be at idle. Depending on how hard you hit the peddle depends on the speed of movement correct? You moved at the same rate whether at higher rpms or idle. I thought it was counterintuitive to mash a hydro as it automatically put you in higher ranges. Unless Kioti does something differently with theirs, I'm not quite getting a handle. How much work can be done with your tractor w/o revving? A lot In other words, using first gear today on mine drove me nuts. Just too slow. The type of work you describe would likely have been done in MED on a hydro. Still lots of torque, but lots of speed when instantly need it. Just mash down on the pedal. I popped into third and at an idle, moved at a better or satisfying speed. Still able to go slowly but at a quicker slow and still do work. From your demo, it looks as if your tractor could do the same so why crank up the throttle?. Because at idle, you have very low horsepower available compared to full throttle. You can actually do plenty of work at idle but sometimes you have to have horsepower. I've come to hate palletized wood but that's another post all by itself especially that I wanted to love this method. Tractor speed had nothing to do with this however.

Lets define some terms. Lets start with the "ranges". There is an old unsynchronized standard transmission behind the hydraulic drive motor. There are either two or in most cases three gear ranges. Mine has the three. LO is a pretty low gear, with wide open throttle and full pedal depression the tractor will go from 0 about 5 miles an hour, but has boatloads of torque. You can't stop the wheels from turning no matter how big the load is or if your FEL is press up against a 3 foot diameter tree. You just can't stop them. They will always turn. If that means digging to China, they will dig to China. MED range with full throttle will go from 0 to about 10 miles an hour. I has good torque, but with loaded tires, and a very heavy ballast on the back in 4wd, it may or may not spin the tires when up against an immovable object. Mine will just barely spin them on gravel if pushing up against that 3 foot diameter tree. What happens is the pressure in the hydrostat gets so high because you are so "uphill" with you actual metal gears that the relief valve on the hydro opens up to relieve this very high pressure. Over 5000 psi by the way. The motor will bog down some, but it is not like the pure mechanical connection of crankshaft to clutch facings to manual transmission to differential to wheels/tires. In HI range, you can go from 0 to just a little over 15mph. (note all these speeds are general, each tractor is different in its gear ratio's and tire sizes) In HI, there is no way you can even begin to spin the tires up against an immovable object. The hydro relief valve will just open and squall. You don't have much torque at all. You would never want to do any pushing work in this range. This range is purely for transport of the tractor down fairly level roads. You get top speed, but not much torque. If you were pulling a loaded wagon up a hill, you might not make it up that hill if it is steep enough. The engine will bog pretty badly, but if the hill is steep enough or the wagon heavy enough the relief valve would open from very high pressure.

Now, what does the pedal do? Well the pedal/pedals are either directly linked or hydraulic assisted linked (depending on size of the tractor) to the swash plate in the hydro. You are simply changing the angle of the swash plate when you press the pedal forward or the pedal is in its neutral position which it will return to by itself with no input or if you press the reverse then the swash plate angle changes in the negative angle.

So what does changing the angle of the swash plate have to do with anything. Well the "slippers" ride on the swash plate and the pistons as they revolve around driven by the prime mover (the engine) are attached to the slippers, and they either have a longer or shorter stroke as the pistons come around to either the suction or the discharge ports.

So lets say that as the slipper/piston is climbing up the steep angle of the swash plate, it takes considerable force from the prime mover to make that piston climb up that hill to force the fluid into one of the ports we will call discharge for now. but if you back off of the swash plate angle the pistons will have an easier time of making it around and this will reduce load on the engine at the expense of peak pressure and a lowering of speed. But this will allow the engine to speed up because you have removed some of its load and if you can keep the engine in its torque band instead of being bogged down below it, you have bettered your actual progress up the hill. Of course if you knew your tractor better you would have shifted the gear transmission to MED before you started up the hill so you would have had sufficient torque and still a good speed.

When you press the reverse pedal, you move the swash plate to the other negative angle, and now the discharge/suction ports swap functions and the hydraulic motor move the opposite direction. All else remains the same, as what ever range you have selected by the manual transmission it is still in that gear. So if you need good torque and good speed, stay in MED range (gear) That way you can for instance move your bucket into the "pile" and get a full bucket, because you have good torque, and you can reverse in an instant and move fast doing it, and if you need to transport a good distance you can have good speed during transport of that full bucket.

If you need to move slower and more precise (like your pallet adventure) put it in LO, you can move at speeds that inchworms are passing you, but you have boatloads of torque (like to push over trees or rocks), and you still have a reasonable speed avaiable up to about 5MPH.

So it is just like a manual transmission, you are trading speed for torque, but you have infinite speed adjustment in each range.
Since the engine is not directly mechanically connected to the rear wheels only a fluid and pressure coupling, there is a loss of power. There is some heat generated. (there is an additional radiator on larger units or a fan on smaller units). But the amount of control, the precision of having just the exact ground speed at the amount of torque you need is just such a beautiful thing to have.

All of these explanations I have attempted here ( and probably rather badly) could be superseded by you operating my tractor for about 2 hours doing various tasks on my hills. You would have a far better understanding of all the relationships of speed torque and ranges. By the way there is no clutch on my particular tractor. Some hydro tractors have them still to engage the PTO, but that is another discussion. Also we have not even begun to explain the Hydrostat Plus of the Kubota grand L series of tractors. They have several enhancements to make operation more productive and easier. But I have "wrote a book" when you just asked a couple of questions so I will stop here.
 
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   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #62  
Arrow, if you want, I can call you on the phone and answer any of your questions to the best of my ability.
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #63  
That was a great explanation. :thumbsup:
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #64  
That was a great explanation. :thumbsup:

Thanks, Moss, I know I kinda get "carried away" sometimes trying to explain things, and ramble on too much. Trying to explain all the virtues and the few downsides of a hydro is complicated. Which is ironic as the actual transmission is somewhat less complicated than a manual transmission, and way way less complicated than something like a Glide Shift. Now that is one complicated puppy. Not that being complicated makes them bad, because they are not.
But you could learn a lot more about hydro usage by actually using it for a while than listening to me ramble on. :)
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #65  
James, that was a great explanation.

Arrow, it's exactly the same on a Mahindra,except that I gave indeed stalled the motor pushing into an immovable object. Most of the time it will spin the tires to China, but it will stall if you can't get the tires to spin. I have no complaints with my HST and I drove a gear for over 20 yes previously.
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #66  
My NX (as do all NXes?) have anti-stall. I seem to recall Eric (of EricTheOracle fame) say the he couldn't really figure out what it did (I think it was more that he didn't find it useful?). What it's supposed to do is back off hydraulic flow demands (adjusts swash plate?) to keep/maintain engine RPM, at points at which, I figure. there is an apparent quick decline in RPMs such that there's impending doom (engine stall). I am pretty sure that I've experienced this doing loader work, driving hard into piles and trying to keep moving AND lift the loader: I'll feel the engine really hit a strain and the transmission seems to back off, and, I think, the loader movement will slow down- kind of what would happen anyway with a non-anti-stall tractor, but such a tractor may actually end up stalling (I've done that with my B7800).
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #67  
Here is a photo of me running my 3pt trencher. To pull that off you need to go a constant steady 1-2' per minute ( that 100' bit took me a bit under an hour). The only way you can pull that off with a tractor is with a HST. It gives you as much control as you want & is the ideal tranny for running a loader or precision work. I have no concerns about placing my pallet forks inches from the rear window on my truck to load/unload something. I'm sure somebody with a gear tranny could pull that off, but I have no desire to try.

Gear is more efficient, which is why they dont ofer HST on the big tractors. But most of us have utility tractors that do lots of random stuff, not just pulling impliments in circles in big fields for days on end. 20171013_101520.jpg
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #68  
Now, what does the pedal do? Well the pedal/pedals are either directly linked or hydraulic assisted linked (depending on size of the tractor) to the swash plate in the hydro. You are simply changing the angle of the swash plate when you press the pedal forward or the pedal is in its neutral position which it will return to by itself with no input or if you press the reverse then the swash plate angle changes in the negative angle.

On thr Grand Kubotas & premium JD tractors it's fly by wire. The pedal is just a sensor with no mechanical connection, like most modern cars & there is a servo or something running the swash plate. Both have buttons or a knob to adjust the sensitivity or rollout. You can set it really responsive so it reacts instantly & is realy rough, or really smoothly as it takes its sweet time to come so a gradual stop. Personally I hate the Kubota system where 1 button runs the whole computer by pressig it a million different ways. JD has a simple knob to turn for sensitivity and multiple buttons to run other computer functions. The economy models have a direct mechanical linkage with no adjustable sensitivity.
 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro #69  
This might help explain how the variable displacement pump and fixed displacement motor of our hydrostatic transmissions work. There is no narration so watch carefully. In this case they show just a simple lever controlling the angle of the swash plate of the variable displacement pump side (on the left), In some tractors is is directly connected, but in others there will be a hydraulic valve controlling the actuation. As Fallon has noted this is becoming electronic control in the more sophisticated tractors. This is a very basic diagram, But you have to start somewhere. It can get more complicated with two speed motors and electronic controls etc.

 
   / An understanding on the age old debate of geared/hydro
  • Thread Starter
#70  
This might help explain how the variable displacement pump and fixed displacement motor of our hydrostatic transmissions work. There is no narration so watch carefully. In this case they show just a simple lever controlling the angle of the swash plate of the variable displacement pump side (on the left), In some tractors is is directly connected, but in others there will be a hydraulic valve controlling the actuation. As Fallon has noted this is becoming electronic control in the more sophisticated tractors. This is a very basic diagram, But you have to start somewhere. It can get more complicated with two speed motors and electronic controls etc.


James thanks so much for your efforts to explain to me and your kind gesture to talk. The picture put your explanation in focus for me. (I couldn't go to a regular college from what I had put up with in high school. Took me 3 hrs of home work to understand what others did in 1 or less. Ended up at an art school that I could work my regular job but still get a degree and then masters even if it took 7 years)

I guess what I could have done when I was in Kentucky was to hop over one state and look you up in Branson. I am quite sure I would have rented your tractor to do that darn indoor. Your tractor sounds like an ideal machine but I will probably keep this Mahindra til I drop. The geared Mahindras are a cinch to operate.

Pilgrim. You have exactly the tractor I hated to operate when it was here. I used it for 3 days and found it to be so exasperating that I need to make up a new word for it . It was "oranganus" for me. (word breakdown: o= Oh! as when you hit your foot with an axe. "rang" as when you have to wrangle with something or wrestle with it and "****" as experiencing a true pain in the arrse)
I am delighted that you love your tractor however and makes me wonder what I could have gotten "used to". The company I bought my 3016 from asked to use my tractor before delivery to rototill their garden. Since I used theirs, I said "no problem". There had to be a reason for this a they had already taken back their hydro 3016. I like mine probably as much as you like yours.
 

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