Another battery question

[Richard]

Usually when cold, I get a singular "click" when I hit the key to start Brutus. I've learned that if I take the forward/reverse lever and waft it back/forth (and get a click click click each time)... the starter will grab hold and it'll fire right up.

After it's warm, there is hardly any click at all, it will start right up like you'd expect.

Starter was out to rebuild shop 1 1/2 years ago and all it needed was new solenoid. (hmm)

I also have brand new (Interstate) battery that exceeds the CCA requirements of the machine.

I can put battery on charger (slow trickle) and get a full charge on it and still have this issue. When the engine DOES turn over under battery power, it turns quite efficiently (suggesting batter is not at fault)

I've begun to wonder if the battery cables might be a worthwile culpret to look at? Seems they've probably been on machine since inception (1987) and I would not be surprised if they have some corrosion inside their sheathing.

???

Any thoughts?

Richard
Make any sense?

 

[JASTN70D]

Is there a lockout switch for the forward/reverse lever.?

 

[Richard]

by lockout switch, I presume you mean somethign that prevents it from starting while in gear? if so, answer is yes. That is why it "clicks" as I wift it back/forth with key on... much easier for me to "click" the starter like that than turning the key over & over.

Machine will NOT start/turn over while in gear.

Richard

 

[Bird]

Richard, of course it's never a bad idea to make sure the cables are clean and solid, but if moving that shift lever around makes the starter finally catch, sure sounds like that safety switch is the culprit; either defective or out of adjustment.

 

[Richard]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but if moving that shift lever around makes the starter finally catch, sure sounds like that safety switch is the culprit; either defective or out of adjustment. )</font>

Though I'd not put my neck on the chopping block defending the switch, I did not mean to infer I suspected it...

What happens, is to start the engine, I can turn, release turn, release, turn release the key as each time it gets turned, it "clicks" the starter (as though battery is weak maybe)

I find it easier on my fingers to simply keep the key turned to start while clicking the forward/reverse lever (same location as turn signal stalk on auto). I only do it that way because I can get a bunch of clicks in faster and with less wear & tear on my fingers than grabbing the small key & turning it appropriately.

I'm 99.99999% sure the F/R lever is fine... if there was any kind of issue inside it, I'd expect the machine to be a bit buggy every now and then (at least) when making the transition from F/N/R or any combo of... the fact of the matter is, I've NEVER NEVER had any issues with that kind of function, (because it DID once cross my mind), so I'm left wondering if I might have some crud growing INSIDE my battery cables, causing their capacity to be diminished.

With the colder weather and the hardwood flooring I've been putting down over the last couple weeks, I've been too cold, lazy and busy to put much energy into this, so I thought I'd ask here to see if my presumption might be worthy (cables).

Maybe this weekend if I get some inspiration... anyone want to send me some inspiration??? ($$$) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Richard

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> What happens, is to start the engine, I can turn, release turn, release, turn release the key as each time it gets turned, it "clicks" the starter (as though battery is weak maybe)</font>
I received a defective Optima battery for my TC25D, actually 2 of them, I just have not returned the second one yet /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif. This is the same noise I heard when the bad Optimas were in the tractor.

 

[Bird]

OK, Richard, now I understand better, so probably not that safety switch. So I don't have an answer for you. If it were me, I'd start by checking the cables, as you suggested, to make sure they're solid, clean, and firmly connected. I'd also check all the connections at the starter. Then I'd check voltage at the battery, both just standing and with someone turning the key to the start position. Then I'd check the amperage draw with my clamp meter on the positive cable while someone turned the key to the start position. Then I'd check the starter solenoid drive gears. The "click" indicates it's trying to engage, but is it engaging properly and not getting enough power to turn the starter or are the gears not meshing properly?

And if I didn't solve the problem by then, I'd probably be calling for help. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[jinman]

Richard, do you know where your starter solenoid is? Can you get to it easily? If you have access, you can use a jumper to get the solenoid to energize. I'm not suggesting jumpering the large battery cables on each side of the solenoid (that will be arc welding), but rather the lead that comes from your starter switch. If the solenoid energizes and the starter turns over the engine, your problem is with the starter switch or safety lockout circuit. If the solenoid just chatters and does not energize, you probably need new cables, to clean your cables/battery terminals, or a new battery.

 

[PineRidge]

I had the very same issue with the Bison tractor that I just sold last month. Once in a while when I would hit the key to start it all I would hear is a click. It turned out to be in the starter itself. I found this out by bypassing the tractor wiring and supplying 12 volts directly to the solenoid on the starter to check the start cycle. When I bypassed or applied power directly to the solenoid I still got the clicking noise thus eliminating all the wiring and switches upstream from it.

A word of CAUTION here! If you are going to do this test make absolutely sure the parking brake is set and the machine is in neutral. Otherwise you might be chasing your tractor down the drive if it starts.

 

[Dave___in___CT]

Hi...


As already said... clean the battery terminals/connection...

This resolved the "click" "no start" problem I've encountered twice with cars...


Dave...

 

[Richard]

Bird :

Cables tight & checked. Cleaned with that chemical cleaner, put back onto shiny post. Connection at starter is ok as I installed it all myself.. hmm.. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif (better go check)

Voltage check, had not thought of that, wonderful idea, ditto amp. The starter solenoid was replaced and honestly, the sound makes me think they are not even meshing, much less hitting. My gutcheck says it’s as you say, “not getting enough power to turn starter”, or more accurately, engage the solenoid.

As for calling for help… /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


JimI I have very easy access to solenoid/starter, hadn’t thought of jumper cable to bypass the batt cable

PineRidge another starter proponent

Hmm.. seems as though more are thinking of looking at the starter. I suppose when I got it back from shop, it could have had a bad / funky solenoid…

I was starting to think it might be getting a weakened ground with the battery ground wire.

Geez, I DO wish it were June about now… no fun tinkering on these things outside in the blustery wind or worse.

I think I’ll do 1 of 2 things, maybe both!! I’ll jumper around the starter cable to try to isolate starter verses cables…I might go ahead and change cables anyway, they are not terribly expensive and this way I’ll KNOW their status.

Thanks all

Richard

 

[Bird]

Richard, this reminds me of a problem I had many, many years ago with a 1970 Oldsmobile that would just click like that. Someone suggested that when it did that, if you just reach under the car and hit the starter with a hammer or something similar, it might engage. Sure enough it did, so decided to replace the starter, and did. Sure enough the problem was worn out teeth on the starter drive.

Now you couldn't ask for simpler starter to replace than a '70 Olds, but I remember it so well because the bolts were so tight and I pulled so hard on the wrench, while lying on my back, that I pulled something loose (ligaments?) in my right arm, so for a week or so afterwards, I had that arm in a sling. And that's when I went and bought my first impact wrench! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[PineRidge]

Impact wrench,,,,, what's an impact wrench ?? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[JD4610]

Actually this is a relatively easy problem to diagnose. Apologies to anyone who thinks this is no-brainer stuff, but reading some of the posts, there might be some confusion on how the starter system works.

It sounds like you have a newer style permanent-magnet starter with the solenoid mounted to the starter, correct? On the solenoid there are typically three connections, one large terminal with a cable from the battery, another large terminal with a wire leading into the starter motor, and a small terminal with a wire coming from the key/start switch. The solenoid has two purposes: One, to physically shift the starter gear so it meshes with the flywheel. Two, it closes an electrical switch inside to send the high current electricity to the motor. This happens simultaneously. We know the solenoid is getting key power and shifting the starter gear because that's the clicking noise we are hearing. The question is whether or not the electrical contacts are working.

So, with a helper, connect your voltmeter black lead to ground and the red lead to the large terminal on the solenoid that leads to the starter motor (not the one coming from the battery.) Now turn the key to 'start' while using all appropriate safety precautions. If the starter solenoid clicks and you have NO power at the terminal, the solenoid switch section isn't making contact and you need a new solenoid. If the solenoid clicks and you DO have power at the terminal, the starter motor itself is bad (most likely bad brushes or commutator.)

The only other thing you might try is checking to make sure the starter mounting bolts aren't corroded. The starters usually ground through these bolts and if they are corroded or loose they may not allow enough current to flow through them to run the starter.

If your starter isn't wired like this, then can you make a diagram or take a picture?

 

[Junkman]

Some solenoids can be disassembled and the copper disk can be reversed and they will work just like new..... When in doubt, I usually take a jumper wire to the main terminal of the solenoid and the other end on the battery positive terminal and try it. If it works, then I know that there is a bad connection at one end of the positive battery terminal or the solenoid end. Sometimes there is corrosion inside of the wire that is causing high resistance also. Don't be too quick to blame the solonoid...
I can't speak for diesel tractor connections, but what you have described is the connections for the GM type of starters.... the center wire comes from the battery, the larger of the other two comes from the ignition switch, and the third wire goes from the positive terminal of the ignition coil to the starter. This is done to supply 12 volts to the ignition coil for starting purposes and after the vehicle starts, then the resistance wire that cuts the 12 volts to 6 volts, takes over. Since a diesel doesn't have an ignition coil, I believe that there would be only two wires to the starter solonoid.....

 

[PineRidge]

<font color="blue">Some solenoids can be disassembled and the copper disk can be reversed and they will work just like new..... When in doubt, I usually take a jumper wire to the main terminal of the solenoid and the other end on the battery positive terminal and try it. If it works, then I know that there is a bad connection at one end of the positive battery terminal or the solenoid end. Sometimes there is corrosion inside of the wire that is causing high resistance also. Don't be too quick to blame the solonoid...
</font>

Go one step further and supply 12 volts to the coil of the solenoid 1st. if you still get the clicking follow Junkmans suggestion. If no click then its in the tractor wiring/switches don't blame the starter at that point.

 

[mainiak1]

I had a similar problem like this. Tuurned out to be a corroded battery cable. It wasn't corroded at the terminal. The corrosion was a couple of feet away on the negative cable under the vinyl covering. It was hidden until I pulled the cable off. The only thing I noticed was it was swelled up. I used a booster cable from the battery ground back to frame. You could try this on the pos. and neg. to eliminate the battery cable possibility. Just a thought.

Mainiak1

 

[RobertN]

Make sure you check all the connections... Check and clean where the selenoid wire attaches. Check for intermediate connectors under the dash ect. Make sure each connection is clean. Check you ground too. It may be clean at the post, but insure it is clean at the frame/chassis connection.

Someone else made a good point too. Sometimes the corrosion on a cable can be up under the jacket/insulation.

 

[Toolite]

The best way to pinpoint the problem is with a voltage drop test. It is described in here click here for link It should be done on both the positive and negative sides of the circuit.