Another Death - Overturned Tractor

[chach]

Last year about this time,a neighbor had been hauling hay up and down the road all morning,you know the drill ,load the wagons take em home and come back empty.He had a big Jd over 85 hp with a four post with steel top.(rops)

After lunch a air ambulance went over my house and i could hear it land,like close.I go up the road a bit but cops already across the road.i can see jd tractor over on it side with wagons past the traxctor.

The hay spear jump out of its pins,after the tractor went over this wicked dip in the road and stuck in the pavement causing tractor to filp on its side.the driver was thrown clear of tractor because he did not buckle in.BUT the wagon i don know if it unhocked or broke but it ran over the fella who died a couple of days later.Had he had his seatbelt on he would of stayed with in the rops and may have broken an arm.Two months from retirement .
chach

 

[Soundguy]

Your next assumption is that ALL tractors have rops available for them.

In fact.. NOT all tractors are rops ready. I own example of tractrs that have no certified rops availability.

Thus.. that slim chance that we both agree on is the only thing you have.. and is thus the only thing you have to depend on. even if it is 'epsilon'.

We do agree.. I'm just pointing out that there are exceptions to every rule.

IE.. if you don't have rops.. and rops aren't available.. then you 'takes your chances' the best you can and use your noodele as best you can. if and when a upset occours you roll the dice. slim or slimmer (grin)..

As you point out.. if you have rops availability and don't take advantage of them.. then you are assuming more risk than you 'have' to.. etc.

I know you point out that you can also choose to simply not use a tractor that has no rops.. however.. that just may not be in the cards ( pun intended) for some.. History is full of people that take extra risk due to financial reasons. Everybody has to run their own cost/benefit /risk ratio's and see where they set.. and get to a comfortable point and then go with it and just hope their number never comes up. There are no guarantees inthis world.

For the record.. I had no doubt of your math abilities. In practical applications.. N and N+1 may not have a whole lot of distance between them..

Soundguy

Egon, NO confusion here, not even before it was explained to me a few extra times.Chances are in a rollover of a tractor with no ROPS and seat belt you will be injured or killed. In a roll over with no ROPS and no belt there is a slim chance you may be thrown clear and not severely injured or killed.

Sound guy

Depending on being thrown clear and not severely injured or killed is right up there with playing the lottery as your only retirement planning. It is such a slim chance as to not warrant depending on it. It is a very flimsy excuse for not installing a ROPS.

I do not disagree at all with the basic math that says something like you have two sets of odds, one is a jillion to one and the other is a jillion point one to one. Any student of arithmetic can see that the one number is larger than the other. I personally don't see that the difference is sufficient to base a safety decision on, as in a good reason to avoid adding a ROPS because of the BIG chance of being thrown clear.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the value of hoping to be thrown clear in lieu of installing a ROPS. One easily missed point is that of the overly limited choices. There are more than two choices, not just no ROPS with vs no ROPS without seatbelt. There are others such as installing a ROPS or not using the tractor for anything remotely possible to cause a roll over (if you can determine that and have the discipline to avoid other activity.)

Again, I am not particularly math challenged and knew from the start that there is a difference between a very large number and a very large number plus a small number. If that is the point you were repetitively driving home, I got it, each time, even before you explained it. I just didn't think it appropriate to encourage anyone to play the odds when clearly the increased survivability, by such a small margin, is not a justification for going without a ROPS.

In case I didn't make it clear, I agree that there is a small improvement in survivability of non-ROPS rollovers if you DON'T wear a seat belt and would never encourage anyone without ROPS to wear one. That said, I also would never encourage anyone to operate a tractor without a ROPS AND seatbelt.

And one thing I would like to make perfectly clear: Choosing to operate a tractor in potentially hazardous conditions where a rollover is possible with a non-ROPS tractor thinking that you are safe because you aren't wearing a seatbelt and will be thrown clear of danger is about as effective as carrying a rabbits foot.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

Now see... that's the real sad issue. Actually having the supierior protection of a full FOPS structure.. not using it, and getting killed. his chances were SO MUCH better than a similar fellow using a tractor with NO ROPS/FOPS.. yet.. the outcome was skewed against him due to his failure to fully utilize the safety equipment he already posessed.

We 'figure' the guy will buy the farm when he rolls the tractor with no rops.. If he lives.. he's darn lucky...

On the other hand.. We 'assume' the guy who rolls the tractor with ROPS/FOPS has a decent chance for survival, and if he dies.. he was 'unlucky'... etc..

Soundguy

Last year about this time,a neighbor had been hauling hay up and down the road all morning,you know the drill ,load the wagons take em home and come back empty.He had a big Jd over 85 hp with a four post with steel top.(rops)

After lunch a air ambulance went over my house and i could hear it land,like close.I go up the road a bit but cops already across the road.i can see jd tractor over on it side with wagons past the traxctor.

The hay spear jump out of its pins,after the tractor went over this wicked dip in the road and stuck in the pavement causing tractor to filp on its side.the driver was thrown clear of tractor because he did not buckle in.BUT the wagon i don know if it unhocked or broke but it ran over the fella who died a couple of days later.Had he had his seatbelt on he would of stayed with in the rops and may have broken an arm.Two months from retirement .
chach

 

[patrick_g]

Soundguy, You sort of distorted the playing field by insisting on an authorized official guaranteed ROPS on a ROPS ready tractor or else no ROPS at all and take your chances.

A serious attempt to build a decent ROPS onto a non-ROPS tractor is not all that lame. Choosing to not do things with a non-ROPS tractor because those activities are not safe is NOT a bad idea. Tree and brush clearing with a dozer with no protection is a good example of unsafe activity. You may not roll it over but the unprotected driver is exposed to high risk. My heavy equipment guys have all sorts of equipment and would never ever take an unprotected dozer to do something that would be obviously dangerous. A lot of their work carries significant risk when conducted intelligently and purposely doing dumb things is not part of their way.

Yes, sadly, many folks when working the risk vs gain equation prove their innumeracy while qualifying for a Darwin.

Something that is just not provident is not made more so by desire or acceptance of risk. This is acknowledged by many states whereby they do not allow a citizen to sign away certain of his rights. In those states you can make out and sign a very legal looking document that purports to absolve another entity (person or organization) from legal liability regarding your safety in certain matters B U T it won't stand up in court. The state does not allow you to be stripped of certain rights pertaining to your personal safety.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree but it sort of supports the contention that some things are just not a good idea no matter how willing an individual may be to undertake the action. There are intrinsic values that transcend situationalism.

If anyone chooses to do things that are patently unsafe their medical care or funeral should not be at the expense of the rest of us taxpayers. With any luck they will die childless and not pass on their inferior genes.

Pat

 

[horse7]

....
If anyone chooses to do things that are patently unsafe their medical care or funeral should not be at the expense of the rest of us taxpayers.
...
Pat

And therein lies the problem... the definition of patently unsafe. Pretty much everyone is going to have a different idea of what that is.

50 years ago people drove cars, no seatbelts, glass (as in, real glass, not laminates), and kids standing on the front seat. Do that today, and "child neglect" comes to mind at least on the East and West coasts.

Oh, and by the way, we don't want to pay your Medicare bills because you ate a trans fat donut sometime earlier in your lifespan!! Talk about unsafe living, where's Darwin when you need him!!

 

[jsborn]

Soundguy, You sort of distorted the playing field by insisting on an authorized official guaranteed ROPS on a ROPS ready tractor or else no ROPS at all and take your chances.

A serious attempt to build a decent ROPS onto a non-ROPS tractor is not all that lame. Pat

I have read other threads that condemned people for trying to make ROPS for their tractors so once again we come to the difference of opinion as to what is lame and what is a serious attempt to do what is right. I have to agree with some of what both of you have to say but I do still use older non ROPS tractors simply because I cant afford to buy new and or retrofit my older models. Am I more careful ? yes but I still use them.

 

[RoyJackson]

I have read other threads that condemned people for trying to make ROPS for their tractors so once again we come to the difference of opinion as to what is lame and what is a serious attempt to do what is right. I have to agree with some of what both of you have to say but I do still use older non ROPS tractors simply because I cant afford to buy new and or retrofit my older models. Am I more careful ? yes but I still use them.

I've never seen any posts or threads condemming anyone for making their own ROPS, although I've seen plenty concerning folks modifying a ROPS.

Making a ROPS for a tractor that doesn't have one available...and for personal (not to be sold) use, seems to be a good idea to me.
Since a structure such as a home made ROPS cannot be tested, it's a chancy thing at best...might want to consider a roll cage rather then just a ROPS...especially on a larger machine.

 

[Defective]

(This whole home made ROPS thing should be in a separate thread...but...)

Making a ROPS for a tractor that doesn't have one available...and for personal (not to be sold) use, seems to be a good idea to me.
Since a structure such as a home made ROPS cannot be tested, it's a chancy thing at best...might want to consider a roll cage rather then just a ROPS...especially on a larger machine.

I agree 100% that it's a good idea. In fact my 2 8Ns both had ROPS that I designed & built myself. Since I used those tractors in the bush on hilly uneven terrain, I built with a bar behind the seat (normal position) and one ahead of the dash to help protect me when (not if...) I rolled onto something other than flat ground. Both of these bars were fastened to a solid subframe to avoid issues with casting strength. These also had substantial overhead structure to act as FOPS so they could amost be seen as roll cages.

As for testing...

Does successful protection during more than half a dozen tip-overs count?

 

[California]

One of the scariest things I see over and over is folks using cinder blocks as at least part of the way to hold up a car, trailer or whatever to work under it. That is NOT a safe thing to do and if you keep doing it you may very well qualify for a Darwin. Pat

I'll second that!

I had several that I needed to discard in a city garbage can. I was amazed that I could break them down into pieces the size of my hand by simply banging them together.

 

[Egon]

Defective; I like your idea of the roll cage. This would be very effective when working in and around trees.

My very small tractor does not have a ROPS but if it did I'd always be afraid the seatbelt would hold me in place so a tree could squash me.

Disclaimer: I am fully in favor of safety devices.