Another Death - Overturned Tractor

[Soundguy]

Soundguy, You sort of distorted the playing field by insisting on an authorized official guaranteed ROPS on a ROPS ready tractor or else no ROPS at all and take your chances.

A serious attempt to build a decent ROPS onto a non-ROPS tractor is not all that lame.
Pat

What about the guy that builds his rops.. thinks it's good, and it folds up in a situation where a real rops wouldn't have. Using your loginc of not using a tractor in a situation you need rops.. might kill the fellow I'm theoretically talking about. He might feel safe doing a job with his homade rops that he otherwise might not have attempted.. and anihilate himself.

This conversation would have been way different in 1970.. I suspect it may also be different in the future when there are more safety devices available. Jump ahead to star trek technology and the peopl emight be discussing that it would be unsafe to use a tractor with -ONly_ a rops.. and not a personal firce field and an escape transporter.

it's all realitive. And in the end.. your best piece of safety gear is setting on your shoulders holding your hat up. With it functioning.. NO piece of safety gear is gonna protect you. Some people are gonna win darwin awards no matter how much you protect them from themselves..

Soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

What about the guy that builds his rops.. thinks it's good, and it folds up in a situation where a real rops wouldn't have. Using your loginc of not using a tractor in a situation you need rops.. might kill the fellow I'm theoretically talking about. He might feel safe doing a job with his homade rops that he otherwise might not have attempted.. and anihilate himself.

it's all realitive. And in the end.. your best piece of safety gear is setting on your shoulders holding your hat up. With it functioning.. NO piece of safety gear is gonna protect you. Some people are gonna win darwin awards no matter how much you protect them from themselves..

Soundguy

Nothing can be made entirely fool proof as fools are too ingenious at trying to qualify for a Darwin. Right, nothing is ever going to be 100% safe in the ad hoc tractor operating arena.

I really agree with most of your comments in general but what did you mean when you said, "And in the end.. your best piece of safety gear is setting on your shoulders holding your hat up. With it functioning.. NO piece of safety gear is gonna protect you. "

I don't understand why a working brain is a liability in the safety arena! Why is it if your brain is working no piece of safety gear can protect you?

Pat

 

[Egon]

Some people are gonna win Darwin awards no matter how much you protect them from themselves..

Think you can come up with enough ideas to prevent this type of scenario in whatever form it takes place???

 

[horse7]

I'll second that!

I had several [concrete blocks - ed] that I needed to discard in a city garbage can. I was amazed that I could break them down into pieces the size of my hand by simply banging them together.

One of the issues with using concrete blocks is not just the gross weakness, but that they fail abruptly. Everything would seem solid until collapse, all to often while the Darwin nominee is banging on something underneath whatever is being held up.

I've occasionally used steel reinforced home made 18x18x12" blocks (4000# CC) combined with wooden cradles, but I'd rather use a Mohawk LMF-12 floor lift if I ever get my garage done!

 

[Soundguy]

Typo - I left out 'OUT'..

IE.. without it functioning.. etc..

IE.. if a persion is a doofus.. -anything- could be potentially dangerous to them.. A rock laying on the ground in their front yard might need a 'choking hazard' warning label on it...

Soundguy

I really agree with most of your comments in general but what did you mean when you said, "And in the end.. your best piece of safety gear is setting on your shoulders holding your hat up. With it functioning.. NO piece of safety gear is gonna protect you. "

I don't understand why a working brain is a liability in the safety arena! Why is it if your brain is working no piece of safety gear can protect you?

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

One of the issues with using concrete blocks is not just the gross weakness, but that they fail abruptly. Everything would seem solid until collapse, all to often while the Darwin nominee is banging on something underneath whatever is being held up.

I've occasionally used steel reinforced home made 18x18x12" blocks (4000# CC) combined with wooden cradles, but I'd rather use a Mohawk LMF-12 floor lift if I ever get my garage done!

Solid concrete pillows aren't too terrible bad.. especially if you lay a piece of wood on top of them to spread out 'cutting' action from a sharp piece of metal.. like angle iron on end. I've seen a pillow block split from a heavy weight dropped on them with angle iron on end.. etc. Cribbing helps.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

Sound Dude, Several years ago I bought 4 of the truncated 4 sided concrete pyramids with a galvanized metal connector to take a post (used under decks and such) but wanted them to be taller so I added a small square concrete block on top and 100% grouted it with concrete letting the Simpson Strong Tie metal thingy tie the new part to the old. They have lasted for 10 years with no problems as "bolsters" to go under the hydraulic camper jacks which I use to load/unload the largest slide in camper that Lance made in '97. The jacks have load spreading feet so there is no cutting action. My Dodge 1 ton 4x4 with custom suspension and 19.5 wheels is too tall for the jacks with no assistance.

I strongly second your wood on top of concrete suggestion (grain at right angles to load) if there is any sort of stress riser action or impact load. I frequently use a wood block on top of floor jacks to be kinder to the part of the vehicle contacted for the lift forces. The wood can distort and form fit, spreading the load without damaging the thing you are lifting. (Again, with the grain at right angles to the force, horizontal.) Wood on top of the concrete similarly protects the concrete and keeps the forces in compression. Concrete can take tremendous compressive loads (appropriately applied) but will fail in a hearbeat if over stressed in shear or tension.

Pat

 

[Rara Avis]

Ordinarily ROPS do not support a tractor inverted on them because the typical result is they prevent the tractor from going inverted and it stays on its side. Operators without seatbelts typically fall off the tractor and then the tractor lays on them.

The idea of "not wearing a belt so you can be thrown clear of the accident" is just as bogus with tractors as it is in automobiles. The stats just DO NOT SUPPORT IT! For every driver/operator thrown free of a vehicle whose injuries were reduced there is the overwhelming majority whose injuries are far worse and much more often fatal.

I have seen exactly one tractor inverted on an operator and there was no ROPS. The guy missed one of his tie down chains and tried to back the tractor off of the trailer. The tractor reared up in front pivoting around the rear axle and landed square on top of him pinning him to the pavement with the steering wheel in an instant, way before good reflexes could do anything.

Accidents that would be rolling over on your side and the tractor never going inverted (with ROPS) become tractors rolling over on top of you with no ROPS. With ROPS and not using the seat belt you are free to fall off onto the ground where the tractor can lay down on top of you. IF you have ROPS and use the belt you are much less likely to have a tractor lay on top of you which can spoil your whole day or week or the rest of your life (however brief it might be.)

Speculating on the consistency of the mud on the bottom of a pond and the dynamics of a ROPS interacting with it is way beyond the power of my crystal ball. Any retarding force countering a roll over, even a reduced effect due to the ROPS hitting mud instead of firm soil would be better than an unimpeded roll over of the tractor on top of you, under water or on dry land.

Pat

Just an FYI...

You are incorrect about ROPS not being able to support the weight of the tractor...see Fed Regs below...

Protective frames for wheel-type agricultural tractors -- test procedures and performance requirements. - 1928.52


And about ROPS being on all tractors...see below


When are ROPS not required on agricultural tractors?

ROPS are not required on agricultural tractors that are used as follows:

(1) Low profile tractors used in orchards, vineyards or hop yards where the vertical clearance requirements would substantially interfere with normal operations, and for work related to these uses.

(2) Low profile tractors while used inside a farm building or greenhouse in which the vertical clearance is insufficient to allow a ROPS equipped tractor to operate.

(3) Tractors while used with mounted equipment that is incompatible with ROPS (for example, cornpickers, cotton strippers, vegetable pickers, and fruit harvesters).

(4) Track-type agricultural tractors whose overall width (measured between the outside edges of the tracks) is at least three times the height of the rated center of gravity, and whose rated maximum speed in forward or reverse is not greater than seven miles per hour, when used only for tillage or harvesting operations, and which:

(a) Does not involve operating on slopes in excess of forty percent from horizontal; and

(b) Does not involve operating on piled crop products or residue (for example: Silage in stacks or pits); and

(c) Does not involve operating in close proximity to irrigation ditches, streams or other excavations more than two feet deep that contain slopes of more than forty percent from horizontal; and

(d) Does not involve construction-type operation, such as bulldozing, grading, or land clearing.

 

[Soundguy]

Now paul.. don't go throwing inconvienient facts into the opinionated hypothetical/theoretical discussion me and pat were having..(grin)

Soundguy

 

[patrick_g]

Just an FYI...

You are incorrect about ROPS not being able to support the weight of the tractor...see Fed Regs below...

Protective frames for wheel-type agricultural tractors -- test procedures and performance requirements. - 1928.52


And about ROPS being on all tractors...see below


When are ROPS not required on agricultural tractors?

ROPS are not required on agricultural tractors that are used as follows:

(1) Low profile tractors used in orchards, vineyards or hop yards where the vertical clearance requirements would substantially interfere with normal operations, and for work related to these uses.

(2) Low profile tractors while used inside a farm building or greenhouse in which the vertical clearance is insufficient to allow a ROPS equipped tractor to operate.

(3) Tractors while used with mounted equipment that is incompatible with ROPS (for example, cornpickers, cotton strippers, vegetable pickers, and fruit harvesters).

(4) Track-type agricultural tractors whose overall width (measured between the outside edges of the tracks) is at least three times the height of the rated center of gravity, and whose rated maximum speed in forward or reverse is not greater than seven miles per hour, when used only for tillage or harvesting operations, and which:

(a) Does not involve operating on slopes in excess of forty percent from horizontal; and

(b) Does not involve operating on piled crop products or residue (for example: Silage in stacks or pits); and

(c) Does not involve operating in close proximity to irrigation ditches, streams or other excavations more than two feet deep that contain slopes of more than forty percent from horizontal; and

(d) Does not involve construction-type operation, such as bulldozing, grading, or land clearing.

Paul, Slow down buddy and read my post SLOWLY. I never claimed a ROPS would not support a tractor inverted and am fully aware of the regulatory issues.

Here is what I actually said:

Originally Posted by patrick_g
Ordinarily ROPS do not support a tractor inverted on them because the typical result is they prevent the tractor from going inverted and it stays on its side. Operators without seatbelts typically fall off the tractor and then the tractor lays on them.

Sorry if my written communications are unclear to you. My intent was to comment on how the typical rollover accident takes place. Typically a tractor does not balance upside down on the ROPS but instead the ROPS prevents the tractor from going fully inverted. In a more violent rollover event the tractor may roll past inverted and end up going about a 270 degree roll. Of course all things are possible but in most cases the tractor does not end up in an inverted position.

Your post is very informative and I agree with its contents EXCEPT the part where you misconstrue my comment. I think we are in agreement unless you wish to make claims that tractors most often end up balanced inverted on the ROPS when they roll over.

Thanks for posting the good info.

Pat