another homemade log splitter question about hydraulics

dbelser · Dec 4, 2012

Hi guys, although this is my first post, I have been a member here for a while and you all have been of great help. But now I need some specific help. I have made a log splitter to hook up to my 1986 JD 2950. I have done so much research and simply cannot find a definitive answer about the proper way to hook up the hydraulics. Honestly, I usually don稚 give this kind of stuff much thought because we only have one piece of equipment that runs off hydros, but I want to do this right. I was given a 4x24 hydraulic cylinder, that I believe was bought from TSC. Anyway, I am curious about hooking up a separate valve to control the hydraulics for the splitter, but I do not know if that will work with my tractor having a closed center hyrdraulic system, can anyone shed some light on this, but explain it like your talking to a 10 year old?
It has 4 ports on the back with two control valves to the right of the seat ( I do not know if that was standard from JD or not, but it was like that when I bought it). It would be nice to be able to have a separate control valve for the splitter instead of using the ones on the tractor, but I just don稚 know how it can work otherwise. Also, I am wondering what size hydraulic lines and fittings to run, or if that even makes a significant difference so long as they are strong enough.

J_J · Dec 4, 2012

If you use tractor hyd, you will need a closed center log splitter valve on your log splitter.

If you use a PTO hyd pump, you can use an open center hyd log splitter valve.

You could also plug in the cyl hose into the remote outlets and power the cyl with the remote valve, but it really is not practical. and it would be a slow process and tedious to go from wood to lever, back and forth..

If the remote valve is locked down, that outlet becomes a continuous source of fluid for the log splitter, and an open center log splitter valve will work. Not that efficient.

Connect the remote outlet to the IN port of the log splitter valve, and run the return to the tank.

oldnslo · Dec 4, 2012

With closed center hydraulics you can use a closed center remote valve on your splitter. If your 2950 has automatic detent kick out you will have to tie the lever on your tractor in position.

Connect one of the tractor quick disconnects to the pressure port of the splitter valve.
Connect the other tractor quick disconnect to the tank port of the splitter valve.

NOTE: To protect the splitter valve you may want to install a check valve in the return/tank line to prevent accidental reversal of pressure and tank to the splitter valve. Most valves have limited pressure capabilities in the tank core.

NOTE 2: If your tractor has a line direct to tank use this in place of the directional valve QD for the tank connection.

Size of lines depends on flow in GPM. In theory you can run lower pressure line for the tank line to save a few dollors.

dbelser · Dec 4, 2012

so will this valve work Chief 1 Spool Hydraulic Control 3 Way or 4 Way Valve - 1820128 | Tractor Supply Company

J_J · Dec 4, 2012

That valve is not a log splitter valve with detent return, but will work to move the cyl if you lock down the remote valve and provide a steady flow of fluid and connect the valve correctly.

You need a log splitter valve with detent return to neutral.

Why not get a closed center log splitter valve like this, and install it parallel to the other valves..

Surplus Center - 1 SPOOL 30 GPM CLOSED CENTER LOG SPLITTER VALVE

Closed center circuits supply full pressure to the control valves, whether any valves are actuated or not. The pumps vary their flow rate, pumping very little hydraulic fluid until the operator actuates a valve. The valve's spool therefore doesn't need an open center return path to tank. Multiple valves can be connected in a parallel arrangement and system pressure is equal for all valves

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

thank you for the response, I am just one of those people that hates to wait, but amazingly, a local hydraulic shop (alabama hydropower) had a closed center log splitter valve. I showed the tech the link to the valve you send me and he said this one has all the specs as the one in the link, except I think it is a 20 or 25 gpm.

The only thing the tech told me was to hook up a open quick connect to one of the ports on the rear of the tractor to see which port will deliver the pressure when the lever on the tractor is in the position I will be tying it down. I did this and hooked up the appropriate lines the valve. and it seemed to work.

however, I have 2 questions: 1. This may just be me, but when I tie the lever on the tractor down, the tractor boggs down a little, which I assume is normal since it does the same thing when I fully extend or close the cylinder on our bushhog, but is it ok to leave it like that?

2. After hooking everything up and running it for a second, all the lines and the remote on started shaking violently, so I took the tie down off and let it sit for a second, turned it back on and it happened again. It consistently happened each time, but each time the shaking would start later and later. any thoughts?

Now, on that last question, when running the tractor normally, I have recently noticed the steering would shake or vibrate if I tried to turn while idling, but this usually only happens when I first start it, and sometimes after its been running for a while. With my luck, I am sure there is something badly wrong, but i am hoping that it is just air in the lines or s

Boostinjdm · Dec 5, 2012

dbelser said:
however, I have 2 questions: 1. This may just be me, but when I tie the lever on the tractor down, the tractor boggs down a little, which I assume is normal since it does the same thing when I fully extend or close the cylinder on our bushhog, but is it ok to leave it like that?

2. After hooking everything up and running it for a second, all the lines and the remote on started shaking violently, so I took the tie down off and let it sit for a second, turned it back on and it happened again. It consistently happened each time, but each time the shaking would start later and later. any thoughts?

Sounds to me like you should have got an open center valve for the log splitter so fluid could circulate freely. I would guess that the bogging and shaking you are getting now is from the pump having to build up enough pressure to open the relief valve and keep it open. I would suspect you will build up lot's of heat by doing this and shorten the life of at least a few components.

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

well, I really hope that is not the case. Everyone i have talked to has told me that since my tractor is closed center, I have to have a closed center valve (although it does not make sense to me why it matters, but being that this tractor is technically my cousin's, I REALLY need to be sure I wont screw it up)

Boostinjdm · Dec 5, 2012

I'm not a hydraulics expert, but if that pump is moving fluid, it's got to go somewhere.

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

haha you and me both brother, the pump and valve definitely work, that is to say when I engage the valve, the cylinder moves. Its the vibration that I am starting to worry about.

Boostinjdm · Dec 5, 2012

dbelser said:
when I engage the valve, the cylinder moves.

And it will whether you have the right valve or not. The problem comes when you are not moving the cylinder.

Does the tractor quit shaking and smooth out while the cylinder is in motion?

J_J · Dec 5, 2012

Did you parallel that valve with the other valves, or just plug it in to the remotes?

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

youll have to forgive my ignorance, but I am not sure what paralleling valves entails.

I really appreciate your being patient with me

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

here are a couple of pics of what i did, i dont know if this will help, but im sure it cant hurt

I determined that the upper right quick connect supplies the pressure when the lever on the tractor is in the forward position, so I ran that line to the "IN" port labeled on the valve, then ran the other line from the "OUT" port on the valve to the upper left quick connect on the tractor.

oldnslo · Dec 5, 2012

DBelser,
It looks like there is a relief valve in the splitter valve. If this is set lower than the tractor operating pressure it will open. Some relief valves will chatter.
Does the pressure hose to splitter pulse and shake?

Not sure what the pressure is for your tractor but you may need to invest in gauge to see what you pressure is doing during different functions.

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

yes, after the lever is tied off, usually a couple seconds later, both hoses start to shake, its hard to tell exactly where the shaking is originating from because it is pretty violent. the pressure on the tractor should be around 2300-2500 psi. do you suggest any certain type of pressure gauge that I could use, preferably something cheap and easy.

oldnslo · Dec 5, 2012

I prefer a liquid filled gauge since it helps dampen the pulsations. Any good hydraulic shop should have them.

I can't tell from the picture but is the relief valve on splitter adjustable using a wrench? Some have an external adjustment that takes a screw driver or hex (Allen) wrench. If this style you could turn the adjustment a known amount and see if the problem stops.

The other style require shims.

Another thought on the chattering is the relief in the splitter opens sending oil out the tank line. The back pressure in the tank line from the Quick Disconnect, valve, valve etc.causes the relief to close due the back pressure being additive to the relief setting. The relief valve closes, flow stops, relief reopens, etc.. This scenario would cause severe chattering in both hoses and would also possible effect the steering since these pulsations would be seen through the entire system.

Roy

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

oldnslo
before we go any further here, I think I figured out that the new valve is an open center valve, because the out port will shoot fluid out when the *tractor* lever is engaged while the splitter* lever is in neutral. I just called the place where I bought the valve and talked to the tech, and he said that the valve is open center and that is what I need since I am running the lines from the remote on the tractor.

dbelser · Dec 5, 2012

J_J
I just plugged it into the remotes, does that mean it will be ok to use an open center valve? because i just realized thats what I have.

J_J · Dec 5, 2012

In my opinion, I think most closed center valves are used for short burst of use, such as a loader valve, or 3pt, T-N-T, etc and not constant flow.

I just talked to the Prince engineers, and they say it is not a good idea to mix valves, as that tractor pump is probably a variable displacement pump and the volume and pressure will be changing a lot.

Excerpt:

Closed
center systems are normally associated with
variable displacement pumps or any other
system where the pump flow is unloaded
when system pressure is reached.
Note: If the closed center plug is installed in
a valve that has a relief it may be necessary to install the no relief plug or adjust the relief pressure above the compensator setting.

The relief on the valve might be telling the tractor pump to unload at a certain pressure

Your best bet is to get a closed center log splitter valve and connect the valve in paralleled. The picture above is a paralleled valve setup

By parallel valve, I mean that there is a feed line that connects to all the closed center valves IN ports. Any one valve will cause the pump to start pumping, until the demand is met.

Any valve that opens, calls for the pump to provide volume and pressure according to the load. This will cause the hyd pump to ramp up and ramp back down as you flip the valve lever to neutral.

You might cheat the system for a while, but hyd parts are not cheap.

Open center hyd valves are in series where the PB from the first valve feeds the IN port of the next valve, and you add valves one after another, and a constant of fluid is flowing all the time, depending on the engine rpm..

I would recommend gong to the remote valve and putting a tee in the IN port and use that to feed the closed center valve.

The correct way to use the closed center valve is to go from the tee on the remote to the IN port of the closed center valve, and run the OUT port of the CC valve to the tank hose or tank directly.

I would take that open center valve back and get your money back and order the valve I posted, and hook it up correctly.