Any body install a Geo-Thermal field?

   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #11  
If you have a lake you may not need the wells. My installer said that some of his customers had ponds and they just anchored coils in the bottom of them, too deep to freeze.
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #12  
<font color="blue"> The system was only about $3,000 more than a conventional heat pump unit and he said we would get twice the life over a conventional system. </font>

A friend had a geo thermal system installed last year when he built his new home. Seems he said it was a $20,000 upgrade (or maybe $20,000 expense). As I haven't priced a traditional HVAC system for a large home like his, I don't know how his $20,000 price would compare. Certainly, it makes a huge difference if this figure is the total cost or an additional expense over a conventional unit. Maybe I should ask him again. As we are planning to build on property adjacent to his, I will be needing to make some HVAC decisions of my own very soon.

As an aside, does anyone have a comment on the horizontal fields vs the vertical systems? Efficiency and cost comparisons?
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #13  
I am not an professional, but I have studied this and other energy efficiency technologies for 20 years.

I can't read this, but if you solve thermodynamic equations for fun, you could read this scientific analysis:
http://www.geothermie.de/egec-geothernet/prof/0677.pdf

Some highlights of other web sites:
vertical wells are drilled to a depth of 100 to 300 feet per ton of air conditioning (http://www.fhp-mfg.com/geothermal/geothermal.htm)

Horizontal Energy Systems ... the pipe is laid into horizontal trenches that are trenched at a typical depth of 4 to 6 feet and to a length of 75 to 400 feet per ton of air conditioning.

(75 to 400 seems like an awfully big range)

Pond/Lake systems are possibly the most dollar efficient since no digging is required, and ponds are natural heat sinks.

I would think that vertical systems could be a lot more expensive, but then I don't know what well digging costs.

I think I may opt to just excavate a large field with the FEL, put in the field, re-cover.
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #14  
My brother, who manufactures geothermal pump modules, had a geothermal contracting company in the 80's, so I learned a bit from association. In most cases, the horz. loops are the most cost-effective way to get transfer. Out and back. A corn field is a great place, if you have one available. Soil/ground moisture determines how many feet are needed. He had installed vertical loops, once or twice inside of an industrial park building, before the slab was poured! Only a well driller, or someone with no area available and a desperate desire for a geothermal system, would want to go with vertical loops. The pond system works, providing it's deep enough to avoid freezing. Open loops are a bad idea, for a lot of reasons, but re-injection into another hole is done. Still, you could contaminate a water supply. Should be lots of good websites and chat groups on the topic. If I were building from scratch, and AC was important as well as heating, and I lived in a pretty temperate area, it'd be a no brainer to go with geo. They work, they are largely trouble free, and once installed, nothing is more cost effective (without burning wood).
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #15  
<font color="blue"> ...and I lived in a pretty temperate area... </font>

Since this thread was started, I've been poking around on the 'net trying to find some real life experiences and anecdotes about using geothermal in South Central Florida. I haven't found a whole lot, yet. Our primary need, of course, is A/C -- we've gone entire Winters without ever turning on the heat. In our case, we also don't us the A/C as much as other folks. If the breeze is nice, we open up. Our new house will have high ceilings, wrap around porches and plenty of ventilation for natural comfort. Any glass not under a porch roof will be tinted (we have tinted film on our present house, and the savings are significant).

Of course, our ground temperatures are a little higher. While most of the geothermal sites talk about 55 degree soil, I believe ours are nearer to 70 degrees. That's great for heating, but will we need longer loops for cooling? I'm still trying to get a handle on how these things work -- near as I can figure, the heat pump multiplies the amount of heating or cooling that is accomplished, but how can the water get cooler than the ground?

We also have a pond, not huge (about 1/4 acre), but I suspect the pond water heats up pretty good in the Summer. We have a pretty good deep spot near the middle (over 12'), but the deep water does not cover a lot of area. I haven't tried to measure any water temperatures (I'm just starting to think about geothermal), but I suppose one could use a combination of ground and pond loops.

Any idea of who is the most experienced/reputable outfit out there to discuss these questions with? WaterFurnace pops up pretty often.
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field?
  • Thread Starter
#16  
JMC,

I'm in Bloomington In as well! Small world. The lake is Monroe and can not sink coils into the lake. That is why I thought if I could use two wells very close so to use the lake as a heat sink. The stone is very soft, sand stone and shale. The down side is the contamination.

Where in Bloomington are you? Me, Ramp Creek
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #17  
Don, the heat pump takes the energy to cool the house coil from say 100 F to 65 F and rejects the heat to the water, heating it from say the ground temp to 5 F warmer. This water is cooled on its path through the ground coils back to ground temp.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(

cooling that is accomplished, but how can the water get cooler than the ground?
)</font>
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #18  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( JMC,

I'm in Bloomington In as well! Small world. The lake is Monroe and can not sink coils into the lake. That is why I thought if I could use two wells very close so to use the lake as a heat sink. The stone is very soft, sand stone and shale. The down side is the contamination.

Where in Bloomington are you? Me, Ramp Creek

)</font>

My sister lives there, but we forgive her out of love. We're a Purdue family /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you already understand how this stuff works - skip this.

The heating and cooling is done based on forcing the gas back into liquid or liquid into gas. Some people have a hard time relating to this, but I think I have good examples:

Air compressors and propane tanks. The air compressor shows what happens when you pressurize a gas into a smaller space. The molecules cannot move around as much and thus are FORCED to lose their heat, transferring it to whatever is nearby. In air compressors, its that little metal tube that goes into the tank and gets very very hot. The heat is not from the motor, but from the air itself. Also, water vapor in the air is re-condensed (also releasing heat). This water then gets blown back out of the tank in liquid form and must be trapped or else muck up some air tools or applications (like painting a car). This is why Turbo'd cars have intercoolers - the air has been squeezed, but is now very hot. The air is blown through a radiator to try to cool it down to ambient temp. When the air is released, it will absorb heat, but that effect is more noticeable with propane tanks.

Propane has to be compressed to liquid form, but you aren't there to see it. Its already liquid when they fill your tank. If you use your propane tank heavily, you will notice ice forming on the outside. This is because the propane expands to many times its volume and absorbs heat from its surroundings. If it wasn't so flammable etc, you could use it to chill things (a waste since you are paying for it). In fact, propane has been used as a coolant medium like freon is. It lost favor because of little things like being very flammable.

So in a nutshell, thats how the heat pump works. When it wants heat, it compresses the medium (freon or etc) which forces the heat to leave the medium - this heat is convected into the house. This leaves the radiator fluid in pipes headed for the ground very cold and is warmed back up to whatever the ground temp is.

When it is in cooling mode, it essentially just works backwards forcing the medium to expand which makes it absorb heat, making the radiator fluid very hot and it uses the ground to cool back down. This fluid could be really hot, and 70 degree ground temps are very cool in contrast.

Geo Thermal heat pumps are essentially the same as regular heat pumps except that they use the ground as the "heat sink" vs. the air. They are generally speaking MUCH more energy efficient. Waste heat can also be used to keep the water heaters hot.
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field?
  • Thread Starter
#19  
I'm a Purdue Engineer, BS Mechanical.

Good explanation on the basics of Geo-Thermal. The one I use when no one gets it, Evaporation when you get out of the shower. The old canteens had a felt cover that you were to wet. As the H2O evaporated it cooled the H2O inside.

Physics, it's not just fun. It's the LAW!
 
   / Any body install a Geo-Thermal field? #20  
Patrick,

I'm up on N. Dunn St., close to the Griffey Dam. There are at least several other people on this board from the Bloomington/Nashville area.

I don't think there is much of an aquifer under Monroe Co. like there is north of here. I used to own a farm several miles west of you as the crow flies. The previous owner said that several attempts at drilling deep wells were futile. The guy across the road from there had a well but it was muddy when it stormed and ran out when they had company. Finally his wife told him to get reliable water or move back to town so he spent a fortune to extend the county water line to his house. At least some of the neighbors got to hook up to it eventually.

Our electric company was very active in promoting geothermal when I installed several in 1992. They did the calculations for the HVAC guys in sizing the system. You mght talk to their expert on it.

Or you could just drill the "wells" horizontally into Lake Monroe like those guys who steal oil from the field next door!

John
 

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