Any HVAC techs in the house?

[LD1]

And if that's what he means, thatsfi e and totally understandable. Which is why I clarified and encouraged him to come back to the thread and weigh in.

Flat out stating "you can. Disagree all you want but you are incorrect" just about had me reply in a more argumentative and hostile manner. But I thought the better of it, and choose to explain myself a little more and give the opportunity for him to to do the same.

My basement is most definitely conditioned. With 7 vents downstairs, and 9 upstairs. The basement has always been cooler, before on after the geo install.

Anyone, (HVAC pro w/35 years experience or amature) that tells me that pulling cooler conditioned air from the basement to the upstairs is a bad idea....is not someone I would trust to know what is most efficient. I don't care if something has "been done that way for 40 years" or not. I am the one paying my bill. I am the one that knows how often my ac has to come on and stay off for.

So someone on the internet tells me my setup is wrong, and I should be doing it in a manner (that causes my system to run more and higher bills) just because that's the way he has always done it for 35 years.......and when I have had HVAC professionals in my area, that have actually been in my house and know the setup confirm that what I am doing is the most efficient I can get with my equipment....well, you see where I am coming from.

 

[Sigarms]

And if that's what he means, thatsfi e and totally understandable. Which is why I clarified and encouraged him to come back to the thread and weigh in.

Flat out stating "you can. Disagree all you want but you are incorrect" just about had me reply in a more argumentative and hostile manner. But I thought the better of it, and choose to explain myself a little more and give the opportunity for him to to do the same.

My basement is most definitely conditioned. With 7 vents downstairs, and 9 upstairs. The basement has always been cooler, before on after the geo install.

Anyone, (HVAC pro w/35 years experience or amature) that tells me that pulling cooler conditioned air from the basement to the upstairs is a bad idea....is not someone I would trust to know what is most efficient. I don't care if something has "been done that way for 40 years" or not. I am the one paying my bill. I am the one that knows how often my ac has to come on and stay off for.

So someone on the internet tells me my setup is wrong, and I should be doing it in a manner (that causes my system to run more and higher bills) just because that's the way he has always done it for 35 years.......and when I have had HVAC professionals in my area, that have actually been in my house and know the setup confirm that what I am doing is the most efficient I can get with my equipment....well, you see where I am coming from.

In Kenmac's defense, when I read you statement

"I disagree about basement air.

The basement is the coolest place in my house. Hotter return air makes the unit work harder.

My basement isnt finished, but is occupied. Kits toy room, laundry, etc. ITs not uncommon for it to be 60 in the basement and 80 upstairs (prior to ac). When I really dont need any cooling.....rather I need blending of the air to make the whole house average out at 70.

I have a basement return, its open to pull all that cool air it desires and blow it upstairs.

As to the temp swings, the hotter the return air, the greater the swing....but that dont equate to efficiency.

And when you said "once the house stabilizes the heat loss will be less".....

Not sure what you mean by that. IF its 95 outside, heat loss will be less at 77 than it will at 72.

The greater the difference in temp between the house and outside....the greater the heat transfer. So the hotter the house is, the less BTU's get transferred to the outside, The farther the spread, the greater the transfer rate. So keeping the house cooler, equates to faster heat loss with the same outside temps."

I thought you were referencing the fact that your basement was unconditioned and you were pulling cool air from the basement from a return into your HVAC system.

Basements below grade (which you didn't state, but what I assumed) will generally be cooler, be it condintioned or not.

My own basment is furnished and has it's own HVAC system. Generally never have to worry about running the AC during the summer, usually it's heating in the winter when my 85 year old father is staying with us lol

 

[LD1]

In Kenmac's defense, when I read you statement

"I disagree about basement air.

The basement is the coolest place in my house. Hotter return air makes the unit work harder.

My basement isnt finished, but is occupied. Kits toy room, laundry, etc. ITs not uncommon for it to be 60 in the basement and 80 upstairs (prior to ac). When I really dont need any cooling.....rather I need blending of the air to make the whole house average out at 70.

I have a basement return, its open to pull all that cool air it desires and blow it upstairs.

As to the temp swings, the hotter the return air, the greater the swing....but that dont equate to efficiency.

And when you said "once the house stabilizes the heat loss will be less".....

Not sure what you mean by that. IF its 95 outside, heat loss will be less at 77 than it will at 72.

The greater the difference in temp between the house and outside....the greater the heat transfer. So the hotter the house is, the less BTU's get transferred to the outside, The farther the spread, the greater the transfer rate. So keeping the house cooler, equates to faster heat loss with the same outside temps."

I thought you were referencing the fact that your basement was unconditioned and you were pulling cool air from the basement from a return into your HVAC system.

Basements below grade (which you didn't state, but what I assumed) will generally be cooler, be it condintioned or not.

My own basment is furnished and has it's own HVAC system. Generally never have to worry about running the AC during the summer, usually it's heating in the winter when my 85 year old father is staying with us lol

Yes, basement is conditions....AND below grade. Well, about 75% below grade. It is a walk out basement, but dirt around as much as can up to the walkout point, which has ~4' high retaining walls.

With a better understanding of my basement, and the fact that it is conditioned......do you disagree with any of my comments so far? Or any of the ones you quoted?

 

[Sigarms]

With a better understanding of my basement, and the fact that it is conditioned......do you disagree with any of my comments so far?

No, per your basement.

 

[LD1]

I agree with you that I think he just has a mis-understanding of my situation. Would really like his feedback now that I have hopefully cleared things up.

As to the op....I do t think he has ever specified weather his is conditioned or not. And my apologies for the hijack

 

[kenmac]

With your updated information (better explaining your situation / installation).I would say yor set up is probably ok.
Around here (in the HVAC world) a conditioned space (basement,etc) is referred to as space that is heated & or cooled.
A basement could mean most anything where people store lawn mowers, weed trimmers, park vehicles, all sorts of chemicals, etc,. People will store anything in a basement ,and taking return air from just any basement isn't advised or approved for health reasons, or even fires.

In the op case, his return was cut in the basement because someone didn't want to bother to enlarge his house return. If he's just taking basement return air because his house return is too small, then his system isn't going to be efficient as it could be. He should be removing heat /humidity from his living space. That's what properly designed systems do. He already has a mismatched system. An older furnace matched to newer equipment different size condenser, coil, undersized duct work. So he's probably getting about the best he's going to get

I bowed out earlier, because I really didn't want this to lead to arguing all day about how /why someones system is or isn't installed correctly.

 

[Sigarms]

As to the op....I do t think he has ever specified weather his is conditioned or not. And my apologies for the hijack

Likewise, I apologize as well to the hijack of this thread.

I've just find that trying to trouble shoot a HVAC system over the internet a lot like playing marco polo.

 

[kenmac]

Likewise, I apologize as well to the hijack of this thread.

I've just find that trying to trouble shoot a HVAC system over the internet a lot like playing marco polo.

Sigrams,You couldn't be more correct !:thumbsup: I sold my business last yr, and retired, but just can't seem to let it go. I still seem to want to stick my :2cents: in whether it's here or on HVAC forums . I just need to delete myself from anything HVAC and let it go !

 

[newbury]

LD you can disagree all you want, but you aren't correct..I was in the bus, for 35 yrs I have never taken return air form a basement or a crawl space or attic space..I don't think you'll find it in the code either.. I could go more into detail of why this shouldn't be done, but at this point I'm out.. Ya'll carry on and take return from where ever you wish

Kenmac - you must have mispoke when you said "a basement" I've lived 65 years in the Northeast, east and Mississippi. All the houses in those years had/have basements, all the basements had/have air ducts for heat at least (In Vermont we didn't have a/c cooling) and all of them were in various stages of being "finished".
The three I own now have returns coming from above grade level AND in the basement where the furnace is

Kenmac stated "for 35 yrs I have never taken return air form a basement or a crawl space or attic space..". From my experience, every state varies per what people use and layout via HVAC systems, but on the east coast, from New York to at least North Carolina, in general, when you here the term crawl space or attic space, it's generally an unconditioned space.

Perhaps he misinterpreted what you stated, I'm not certain, but that is where my comment came from.
I believe what Kenmac is saying in 35 years he has never pulled return air from an unconditioned space (I also believe that is what he meant by "code").

But he used the term basement - not unconditioned space.

With your updated information (better explaining your situation / installation).I would say you are probably ok.
Around here (in the HVAC world) a conditioned space (basement,etc) is referred to as space that is heated & or cooled.
A basement could mean most anything where people store lawn mowers, weed trimmers, park vehicles, all sorts of chemicals, etc,. People will store anything in a basement ,and taking return air from just any basement isn't advised or approved for health reasons, or even fires.
<snip>

Are you indicating that taking return air from a basement is against code in some areas? I'm concerned because I have three basements like that.

 

[Sigarms]

But he used the term basement - not unconditioned space.

Sigh... he used basement in the same breath with attic and crawl space. I ASSUMED since he was lumping all three together. He also didn't mention that the attic or crawl space was unconditioned as well.

I've been in an attic that was about 2300 square feet, none of it conditioned.

 

[Sigarms]

Are you indicating that taking return air from a basement is against code in some areas? I'm concerned because I have three basements like that.

Unconditioned space.

If you would of read the last sentence in post 40, I think I spelled it out pretty clearly for you.

 

[kenmac]

Unconditioned space.

If you would of read the last sentence in post 40, I think I spelled it out pretty clearly for you.

That's right. Around my area inspectors define a condition space as any space that is heated and /or cooled with the exception of an area with dirt floors. Any place with dirt floors (whether heated or cooled) is still considered an unconditioned space.

We're talking IAQ here..Why would anyone want to distribute / breath musty unconditioned air throughout their living space ?
Another issue would be taking air from an area close to a gas furnace , W.H., etc, that doesn't have a sealed combustion chamber. You stand a chance of drawing combustion products from the furnace,wh,etc, into the return and distributed throughout the home..

Again, when considering where to locate a return, the air that is circulated throughout your home via return, is the air that you breath. IAQ is what's imporant,along with efficiently.

 

[CADplans]

Are you indicating that taking return air from a basement is against code in some areas? I'm concerned because I have three basements like that.

I do not think it has been mentioned here,,, so I will add the word,,,

Radon,,,

The people that install radon abatement equipment would have you think 90%+ of basements have radon.

If I were gonna move my basement air to the main part of the house,,
I would have some sort of radon detection equipment!! (do they make a radon detector?? )

As we only spend 5% or less of our time in the basement,,
I am not overly concerned about continual monitoring for radon.

 

[dadster4]

Given the new information, 3-1/2 ton should be OK. You said the main return was 20 x 20, what is the actual size of the duct coming from that return? The duct size is what determines how many cfm you will get. You need more return air, but the basement is not the place to get it, see below as to why (LD1 take note). Do you have a closet or dead space that could be used to create a chase to run a 12" - 14" round duct up to the attic, and then to a return in the ceiling or wall of the cathedral area? You need to get more return from the living space on the main floor, and tap into the return drop (24 x 10 min), or increase the return duct size to the furnace from the point the new duct taps in. I know it is a lot of work, but the problem will not be resolved without some modifications.
Basement return: In General Lee's situation a basement return is OK...IF...it is made smaller, preferably run a distance away from the furnace, and supply air is added to the basement of sufficient volume to balance the volume of return air being drawn from that space.
In MOST situations...when a return is cut into a return drop at the furnace, it creates a negative pressure in the basement, which can cause a loss of draft of both the furnace( General Lee has an old oil furnace) and water heater flues, drawing CO into the living space. As Kenmac knows, every situation is different, but relying on the homeowner to remember to cover a basement return is a NOT the way to go!!!
My current home of 3 years has no return duct at all, it draws directly into the air handler in the basement, BUT... I have an all-electric home(like I said, every situation is different) and I have plans to add both supply and return up to the loft in the future (log cabin) when I remodel the first floor bath and have walls opened up.
Another note: You mentioned that you didn't know what blower speeds you had. Check the wires coming out of the blower motor- red=slowest speed(heat), black=high(cooling), white=common, two browns(if you have them)=capacitor(stay connected no matter what speed selected), any others are med-low or med-high.

 

[General Lee]

As to the op....I do t think he has ever specified weather his is conditioned or not. And my apologies for the hijack

My basement is conditioned. There are a couple vents down there off the main trunk line. Maybe "perfectly" conditioned but I wouldn't call it unconditioned.

In the install company's defense, They did inform me keeping my old oil furnace and blower would not allow the system to be at its best efficiency. I did not want to give up my oil heat. I added the heat pump/AC combo in hopes of saving a little bit in oil costs.

 

[General Lee]

Dadster - Throughout the years having a few different HVAC companies out here, it has been mentioned I could use another return in the living space. I realize now adding the second one at the furnace, duct comes up about 4 foot with a 14x20 grill, was a quick band aid to help quiet the system down. Off the top of my head, I don't know the duct size coming off the 20x20 return. I was told my system needs 1400 cfm's and I'm only getting about 1200 off the main return. With the additional 14x20, "I should be close". So yes, return air is a problem in my home.

 

[Sigarms]

Static pressure reading?
CFM's running on the system?
Blower tap setting?
Assuming upflow position?

Model and serial number of outdoor unit?
Model and serial number of indoor blower?
Model and serial numbe of coil?

You would be amazed at the amount of HVAC guys when you ask what their air flow is, they will aways respond with "good".

Oil furnace with heat pumps are becoming more and more of a pain in the butt due to DEO regulations on efficiency ratings (a 14 SEER coil is a lot bigger than a 10 SEER coil), added, you can end up needing a bigger coil for a heat pump over an AC unit.

Here is the reality...

If you have a professional HVAC company propose a HVAC system, they should take speciffic readings on your existing system and document those readings, and address and potential issues with you prior to replacing your system. This way, when they replace your system, they can then compare those same measurments between the new and old system to see what changes were made. A professional company would also give you those readings for your own documentation as well.

Like any business, you have your share of crooks, but a good HVAC company will stand by their work and document everything. This is why some good HVAC companies actaully charge more than the weekend warrior or the guy who sells strictly on price and cuts corners to save on his own end. God forbid men take pride in their work and would like to get paid for it

Ultimately, if there was an issue with the ductwork to begin with, a good HVAC company would of spelled out the issues and relay the information to the end user what the outcome would be if those changes were not made during the retrofit with new equipment, AND have the end user sign off on being informed of those issues.

You can go out to a house and have mis sized ductwork or not enough supplies or returns run, and the end user has lived with it for years and puts up with it. You charge them a pretty penny to change out the system, and all of a sudden their expectations are a lot higher. From the contractors standpoint, this is only CYA.

 

[LD1]

Given the new information, 3-1/2 ton should be OK. You said the main return was 20 x 20, what is the actual size of the duct coming from that return? The duct size is what determines how many cfm you will get. You need more return air, but the basement is not the place to get it, see below as to why (LD1 take note). Do you have a closet or dead space that could be used to create a chase to run a 12" - 14" round duct up to the attic, and then to a return in the ceiling or wall of the cathedral area? You need to get more return from the living space on the main floor, and tap into the return drop (24 x 10 min), or increase the return duct size to the furnace from the point the new duct taps in. I know it is a lot of work, but the problem will not be resolved without some modifications.
Basement return: In General Lee's situation a basement return is OK...IF...it is made smaller, preferably run a distance away from the furnace, and supply air is added to the basement of sufficient volume to balance the volume of return air being drawn from that space.
In MOST situations...when a return is cut into a return drop at the furnace, it creates a negative pressure in the basement, which can cause a loss of draft of both the furnace( General Lee has an old oil furnace) and water heater flues, drawing CO into the living space. As Kenmac knows, every situation is different, but relying on the homeowner to remember to cover a basement return is a NOT the way to go!!!
My current home of 3 years has no return duct at all, it draws directly into the air handler in the basement, BUT... I have an all-electric home(like I said, every situation is different) and I have plans to add both supply and return up to the loft in the future (log cabin) when I remodel the first floor bath and have walls opened up.
Another note: You mentioned that you didn't know what blower speeds you had. Check the wires coming out of the blower motor- red=slowest speed(heat), black=high(cooling), white=common, two browns(if you have them)=capacitor(stay connected no matter what speed selected), any others are med-low or med-high.

What am I taking note of here? My duct work system was designed by one of the best HVAC guys in this area. There is no reason at all for me to NOT pull basement air. And actually foolish if I dont.

No gas or oil burning equipment. All electric. And basement is open to the upstairs via the ~4' wide x ~10' long stairwell opening with just a little short ~42" wall around it. And I have 7 vents downstairs.

My house is no different than a common 2-story house with an open stairwell to the 2nd level. Only difference is my 1st floor.....is sub grade and has 8" poured concrete walls. As a result....it stays considerably cooler than the second level....due to it being sub-grade, and the fact that heat rises.

I know my uncle just had HVAC system installed in his new ~3500sq ft house. His system uses some type of zone controls. Where there are dampers and what not that can control the temp in each individual room. Its a fully finished basement, with a 2-story house on top. IF the upper rooms get above setpoint, and lower rooms are below setpoint, through the brains of the system, it is smart enough to adjust a few dampers, and turn on nothing more than the blower to redistribute the air to satisfy setpoints. Makes for a highly efficient way to heat and cool a house.

Thats the same basic approach I am taking, only on a smaller and more manual scale.

 

[LD1]

My basement is conditioned. There are a couple vents down there off the main trunk line. Maybe "perfectly" conditioned but I wouldn't call it unconditioned.

In the install company's defense, They did inform me keeping my old oil furnace and blower would not allow the system to be at its best efficiency. I did not want to give up my oil heat. I added the heat pump/AC combo in hopes of saving a little bit in oil costs.

If you have supply vents down there, then it is indeed a conditioned space. Now I dont know enough about oil furnace, fumes, etc etc. If it were not for that, I'd say you most certainly would want a return duct down there, at least enough to balance out the supply vents.

 

[newbury]

<snip>
Are you indicating that taking return air from a basement is against code in some areas? I'm concerned because I have three basements like that.

If you would of read the last sentence in post 40, I think I spelled it out pretty clearly for you.

Post 40, last sentence:

I believe what Kenmac is saying in 35 years he has never pulled return air from an unconditioned space (I also believe that is what he meant by "code").

What your beliefs are and what Kenmac writes can be entirely different. He's the one that wrote basement in the first place and as has been demonstrated here many of us have "conditioned" basements.

That's right. Around my area inspectors define a condition space as any space that is heated and /or cooled with the exception of an area with dirt floors. Any place with dirt floors (whether heated or cooled) is still considered an unconditioned space.
<snip>

So just to make it simple, since you have not written that it meets code to draw return air from ANY conditioned space - Are you indicating that taking return air from a basement which is conditioned is against code in some areas?

My main concern is with the constant tightening of inspection regulations which force me to meet new codes. I've a major addition being put on one house which will need a deck added later. I've been told by the inspector that I'm going to have to move a concrete block shed with a concrete floor that has set next to the property line for over 60 years because it does not meet new code before I can get a permit to build the deck.

I'm also concerned if I upgrade my heating unit in Mississippi they will require inspection with new codes and they might require new returns being brought down from above which would cause significant ductwork.