Anybody use 17 caliber???

EdKing · Jan 17, 2003

Other than any mechanical difference of the firing pin striking the load dead center, via off center, is there any substantial differences with the SAME bullet having different firing methods? If so, what (in general) IS that difference?


Rimfire cases are not reloadable, while center fire are. This limits you to shooting factory ammunition. The .17 HMR, .22 LR, and .22 WMR are the only rimfire cases currently being loaded.

The centerfire cartridges can also handle higher pressures, making the modern high velocity rounds possible.

Anonymous Poster · Jan 17, 2003

Richard, I am not a gun expert, far from a guru. When I mentioned centerfire rifles, I was referring to guns such as 22-250, .270 win, and 300 Mag. We use these to hunt woodchuck for sport. I wounded many chucks with a .22 magnum but now with my .270 and bi-pod they are not safe at <350 yds. These guns provide much more speed, therefore range, and power when it gets there. With a rimfire, shot placement is crucial, which can be difficult on a moving target, especially when you are rushed. And I am sure a coyote shot will almost always be rushed. A bad shot with a small gun and that animal is gone...fast. A bad shot with a big gun, and it's going down. You will get another shot. I guess it boils down to using something that 'can' do the job or something that 'will'. To each his own, and if I was shooting short range in my barnyard, I'm not sure what I'd do, either. Maybe get a large dog.

diggerjim · Jan 17, 2003

Egon
Not trying to be confrontational but just trying to make a point however skewed by my personal experiences. Try a test, set up two pieces of scrap 1/4 inch plywood nailed to a 2x4 so there is app. 4 inches between them. Back off 100 yards and shoot with your jacketed hollow points. See if the 17 rem or 222, 223, 22-250. etc. bullet blows up on contact with the first piece. Post the pics after the test. Hey if it will blow up on a piece of grass even paneling should stop it. All I'm trying to point out is there are alot of people hearing that high power small caliber bullets blow up on nearly anything. Add that info to a novice shooter in a populated state as in the mid-west, east, near any town and disaster is surely to follow. Maybe not in your neck of the woods but someone's. Safety first, period.

My glass is niether half full or half empty, its just too big!
Jim

Egon · Jan 17, 2003

The Attic squirells are now safe as I have moved from an acreage in Alberta to a house in town in Nova Scotia.

Egon

RanchMan · Jan 17, 2003

Richard -

Accuracy/velocity/other?? (or am I reading too much into it)

Ed already talked about centerfire vs. rimfire, but I'll add a few more pieces of "weirdness" too the mix.

Different cartridges are known for being more accurate than another even if they shoot the same bullet at the same velocity/energy. I'm not saying it is impossible to get a cartridge not known for inherent accuracy to shoot very tight groups in a particular gun - just saying that all things being equal, some cartridges "shine" in the accuracy department - even when they are shooting the exact same projectile at the same velocity as another "not so accurate" cartridge.

Another trivia point is that recoil velocity & energy can change even if the two different cartridges being shot are shooting the same projectile at identical velocities and the guns themselves weigh the same. This has a lot to do with the capacity of the cartridge case and how "efficient" the powder charge is (e.g. small volume case/small powder charge vs. large vol. case/large charge.) Of course, you can even change recoil within the same gun while keeping the projectile’s velocity/energy the same just by switching powders too, as different powders burn differently.

Right now the big trend seems to be short, fat cartridges. Palmisano & Pindell (PP of PPC) started this trend in '75 with their 22 & 6mm PPC cartridges. Remington soon followed in '78 with their 6mm BR, but the real "take off" of the short/fat cartridge has only been in the last year or so with Winchester SA Ultra mag.

Not trying to muddy the waters or anything, just pointing out some aspects I always found kindof interesting when thinking about how things work inside the gun once one pulls the trigger that seemed related to your question. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Richard · Jan 17, 2003

Edking... thank you, as that sheds some light on the issue for me

These guns provide much more speed, therefore range, and power when it gets there. With a rimfire, shot placement is crucial

Now, this confuses me again....

If you are using the same rifle, same round (grains and all that stuff), all things identical with the only difference being center -vs- rim fire... (I 'think' a rifle is either center or rimfire also, if so, I unerstand that you won't literally use same rifle)

What is it about one over the other that makes the difference you claim here?

My logic says that if both bullets have "X" grains and "Y" type jacket and all that other stuff (that I don't know what I'm talking about) being EQUAL, and the ONLY difference is one is fired rim verses center.. that BOTH ought to have the same gas pressure, velocities, impact and all those other things.

Isn't the center/rim firing method only related to how the primer cap gets hit and thereby fires the round?

*note* I'm not badgering, flaming, trolling, other... I'm not a gun owner and honesly have no clue.. am only trying to understand and learn because someday, I might end up at the local sporting outlet looking at these things.

Thanks

RanchMan · Jan 17, 2003

Richard -

I'll jump in here since I'm sitting @ my computer now anyway.../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I 'think' a rifle is either center or rimfire also...

For practical purposes, yes, these are the only two types. (Unless you want to talk about flintlocks, percussion, or some other "weird" things out there.)

Isn’t the center/rim firing method only related to how the primer cap gets hit and thereby fires the round?

Correct.

My logic says...things identical with the only difference being center -vs- rim fire...that BOTH ought to have the same gas pressure, velocities, impact and all those other things.

Well, logically it would seem to work out that way, but the problem is that there are a lot more variables in the equation and therefore it doesn’t really work out that way you deduced.

As Ed pointed out, practically speaking, the only rimfire ammo being made now is in .17 & .22 caliber @ certain velocities. (I'm ignoring all the rimfire cartridges developed in the 1800's here because even though you can scrounge up some ammo, I don't know of any arms made in the last 100 years that use these oddball cartridges.)

Currently there are no centerfire cartridges (even at reduced loads) that mimic the velocities/energies with the same bullet as the current rimfire offerings. (The centerfire rounds are far faster even with the same bullet.) So a true "side by side" comparison of "equivalent" rimfire and centerfire cartridges can't be done practically.

That being said, lets look at the "what if" aspect. Going back to my previous post, I mentioned how you can change recoil energy & velocity even when the projectile (bullet's) E/V stay the same just by changing powders. Keeping the bullet's E/V the same, but changing the powder type will also change the internal pressures because different powders burn differently. But it goes even further than that...

Within a centerfire rifle cartridge, you can change the bullet's E/V (and internal pressure) just by changing the brass or primer you use! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif The brass can change pressures & velocities due to wall thickness/construction (e.g. thicker walls, less internal volume, ergo higher pressures). The benchrest folks get down to where they will weigh each empty brass cartridge (even within the same manufacturer) so things remain consistent for their shooting, and hopefully result in tighter groups.

The primers also make a difference. You can get different primer flavors for a given cartridge type. You can get “standard” primers, or “benchrest” primers, or “magnum” primers, for example. All of these primers fit in the same hole and function in the same way (unlike comparing rimfire to centerfire) and they can (and do) have an impact (sometimes dramatic) on pressures, accuracy & velocity even when all the other variables are kept the same. It isn’t odd for those who reload to find that a particular cartridge combination shoots much better when they switch the brand of primer they are using when everything else is equal. (bullet, brass, powder, charge, primer type - i.e. ‘standard’, etc.)

So, getting back to your original question, since rimfire primers work in a totally different way (they way they ignite and burn pattern they initiate), even if you could use the same chemical content in a rimfire primer that you used in a centerfire primer, it would most likely result in a completely different outcome with regards to accuracy/pressure/velocities with everything else being equal.

Hope this helps! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

PS: I might end up at the local sporting outlet looking at these things.

I hope you do! We need more good folks to become interested in the shooting sports! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

--------
Fun fact:

For those who reload, you are always supposed to "work up" to a particular powder/brass/primer/bullet combination with reduced powder charges whenever one of the component variables change due to pressure considerations. (Guns can literally "blow up" if you screw up and exceed safe pressures. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif)

Just for reference, internal pressures in modern rifles can go as high as 50,000+ cup/60,000+ psi and powder measurements are generally in tenths of a grain (gr) or 1/70,000 of a lb.- BTW, cup is a measurement method and therefore there is no direct mathematical conversion from cup to psi. That’s why the reloader types tend to be kindof precise and also pretty respectful of their hobby. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

TresCrows · Jan 17, 2003

I have a Ruger 7722 in the Hornet. It is the heavy barrel target version. Loaded with the Hornady 30 grain bullet it is a 3000+ fps round. It will disintergrate small varmints. That particular load would not be my choice for a clean kill on a coyote. I would use a 40 grain soft point and would stay within 100 yards or less for a clean kill. The little 30 grain "varmint" bullet literally explodes if it touches anything and so is very richochet proof but I doubt it will penetrate effectively to kill a coyote cleanly every time. I also bought a new gun in the 17HMR. It is a fun little thing and it will be a great plinker and is excellent on small varmints--I would not recommend it on coyotes unless Hornady provides a "tougher" bullet for penetration into larger varmints. I would recommend the 22Hornet. It is more versatile, Hornady makes the 30 grain varmint load for it and of course there are several traditional loads for it that would be suitable for coyotes. I am assuming you cannot get close enough to use a shotgun. The Hornet is a lot of fun to shoot but loaded with a tougher bullet it will richochet--so---if you cannot provide a sure backstop to protect your neighbors--I would recommend living with the coyotes. I have several around here and they don't bother a thing--they have yet to uprise and try to destroy democracy or attack my wife and dogs--of course--I guess anything is possible.
Oh, I also have a Winchester lever gun in 22 Mag. It too will cleanly kill a coyote out to about 50 yards with the soft point type bullet, it will also richochet. There are several new loadings for the 22Mag I have not tried, I am in favor of the 22 Mag over the 17HMR for anything larger than a chipmunk. Since I have all three guns, I have had some good experience with them, probably a better coyote gun would be the 223 or a 243. The advantage of the 243 is it is a useful deer rifle also. I might also suggest the Ruger Ranch rifle in either 223 or the 30 caliber. Again, the 30 caliber would be useful for deer or even hogs. J

Boondox · Jan 17, 2003

TC -- Thanks for the recommendations. The shotgun is great, but unless I use slugs the odds of hitting my own livestock are too great...and the slugs kick too much for my wife. She's really a "little pop and no kick" sort of gal. We'll check out the options you suggested.

We've had horrible problems with coyotes here. Just over the hill in the next valley a fellow lost 23 sheep in a single night. Very little was eaten. From the tracks in the snow it was almost like youngsters were being taught how to kill. Not sure if coyotes do that or not. Another farmer had a ewe attacked, but the fellow's llama chased off the coyotes. Maybe we ought to get a llama; didn't realize they were that brave.

Pete

EdKing · Jan 17, 2003

Maybe we ought to get a llama; didn't realize they were that brave.

My neighbor has a llama and a donkey, since he got them his loss of lambs to coyotes has dropped dramaticly.