API Oil Ratings

cowpie1 · Feb 12, 2012

frank_miller said:
ya, you are right if you think a group III is a synthetic (same class as 4 or 5). There XL line is a total ripoff. It is a blend since it only goes 7500; plus as UOA show. There SSO, for most people will NOT go 35K miles. That is what I love about America. You can call a grp III a synthetic...gotta love it.

crashz is correct and that is why it is API cert. For me, I could careless on API certs. For their price, but Walfarts "synthetic oil" and save about 60%.

And I would bet that most could even show the major difference in actual field results between a Group III or Group IV oil. Group III's perform and provide more than enough protection for all but the most severe conditions. Just because a Group III is a severely hydrocracked mineral oil and the Group IV is made from natural gas, does not mean that there is any real appreciable difference in quality. It could be an issue if you are requiring an oil that will perform at -70F at Barrow, AK in the winter, but only because of flow rate at those temps.

But then, I have well over 800,000 miles on my present Cummins ISX, and got 1.4 million miles on my previous Cummins N-14, both without overhauls, using Group II oils and doing 25,000 mile oil changes. Why spend more?

sw03 · Feb 15, 2012

cowpie1 said:
And I would bet that most could even show the major difference in actual field results between a Group III or Group IV oil. Group III's perform and provide more than enough protection for all but the most severe conditions. Just because a Group III is a severely hydrocracked mineral oil and the Group IV is made from natural gas, does not mean that there is any real appreciable difference in quality. It could be an issue if you are requiring an oil that will perform at -70F at Barrow, AK in the winter, but only because of flow rate at those temps.

But then, I have well over 800,000 miles on my present Cummins ISX, and got 1.4 million miles on my previous Cummins N-14, both without overhauls, using Group II oils and doing 25,000 mile oil changes. Why spend more?

holly old thread but I will add this. There is a diff if you test your fluids. Highway miles, air filters, bypass etc will change etc but these filters will add cost.

The poster you replied on is not here anymore, good luck...
YMMV

crashz · Feb 22, 2012

No - but I'm still here to harass you all!

Things have definately changed some in the past 4 years. Back then I refered to Amsoil's XL line as a rip off, as they were pricing a Group III oil along the lines of other PAO blended Group IV and V synthetic oils like M1, RP and redline. Other branded "full synthetics" that were Group III based had a price advantage. In fact it wasn't to much cheaper than their own PAO based oils. I think Amsoil makes a top notch product in there full synthetic line, however I continued to buy other oils due to pricing and availibility.

The last time I went oil shopping I noticed that regular pricing of M1 and Royal Purple are very expensive. From what I've heard lately, Amsoil's pricing hasn't budged. Since thats been my big hang-up, I may be switching to Amsoil on my non-warrantied rigs.

To swing this back around to the original topic, the API ratings are a minimum standard for many aspects of engine oil. Amsoil and Redline have historicaly defied them, not because they couldn't meet min specs, but because they typically use much more wear and EP additives such as phosphorous and ZDDP as well as a high total base number. These additives have been know to reduce the effectiveness of pollution control equipment, and have recently become more and more restricted in the lasted few API standards (SM and SN).

sw03 · Feb 22, 2012

crashz said:
No - but I'm still here to harass you all!

Things have definately changed some in the past 4 years. Back then I refered to Amsoil's XL line as a rip off, as they were pricing a Group III oil along the lines of other PAO blended Group IV and V synthetic oils like M1, RP and redline. Other branded "full synthetics" that were Group III based had a price advantage. In fact it wasn't to much cheaper than their own PAO based oils. I think Amsoil makes a top notch product in there full synthetic line, however I continued to buy other oils due to pricing and availibility.

The last time I went oil shopping I noticed that regular pricing of M1 and Royal Purple are very expensive. From what I've heard lately, Amsoil's pricing hasn't budged. Since thats been my big hang-up, I may be switching to Amsoil on my non-warrantied rigs.

To swing this back around to the original topic, the API ratings are a minimum standard for many aspects of engine oil. Amsoil and Redline have historicaly defied them, not because they couldn't meet min specs, but because they typically use much more wear and EP additives such as phosphorous and ZDDP as well as a high total base number. These additives have been know to reduce the effectiveness of pollution control equipment, and have recently become more and more restricted in the lasted few API standards (SM and SN).

Problem is Amsoil has OE and there other lines and are a ripoff. Buy the normal PAO and easter based fluids for like 5% more. More ZDDP and higher TBN. But a higher TBN does not mean a better fluid either.

You can use Amsoil in a car under warrenty or not. Why would you not? Dealer scare you? Then again this issue has been around here since 2002/2003 from what I remeber. You can have all the slips etc in the world and if something happened, they will pull a UOA.

Amsoil has reduced ZDDP, along with others, since it is fed mandate. I think with the new SN rating or some CAFE standard.

Remember M1 and other can be in the same group but have less pour point, high NOVASCk ratings etc. You need to look at all the area and not just price and buying at walmart.

crashz · Feb 22, 2012

Good points Sw03.

The Honda dealer that we bought her car from is decent. Easy to work with. Some GM dealers that I have been too, including my selling dealer, are terrible. And the wording in the owners manual is clearly posed to cover GM's tail. We have the optional 5 yr /100K mile bumper-to bumper warranty on both cars, and this is where I see the dealers trying to weasel out of warranty work. I've gotten organized and have been (and will continue) clearly detailing every service that I perform with receipts and an electronic log for these two, that would match the maintenance minders in each vehicle. If all this work is for nothing, at least I would have peace of mind, and the vehicles will have a detailed maintenance log for any future owners.

On a side note, I'm doing something I've never done before: I plan on using only OEM filters and only Mobil 1 fluids for these two vehicles (the rest are diesels, and will continue to get the products that I'm feeling on that day). I picked M1 basically because they were the easiest to obtain and on-hand at all of the parts house close by. No allegence to M1, more of an experiment to see if I can maintain the same types of fluids and filters for the life of these vehicles.

I feel that M1, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Red Line are top tier synthetic oils and are very close in comparision when used in my applications. Using one over the other will not likely extend the life my engines by any appreciable amount. Based on this I let price and ease of obtaining dictate the oils. With M1 reaching $9 a quart for a regular price, with Red Line and RP even more, Amsoil may become a serious consideration.

BTW - I didn't know that there was a federal mandate on ZDDP. So thats not just standardized by the API, but actually mandated (I assume by the EPA)? I wonder if this is the reason that "racing" (for off road use) oils are becoming more popular? Nothing left of the regular oils that will protect a flat tappet cam/lifters anymore.

rsewill · Feb 22, 2012

Not Amzoil and off topic but junk oil sometimes can last a long time. I had a 1994 Ford Taurus that we retired to backup use. Just shy of 200k miles then. No maintenance, just whatever was necessary to keep it usable when needed like adding air to tires. My teen son drove it, it was loaned to family members who needed a temp, etc., etc. It finally had a bearing go on the bottom. Drained the oil and it ran out brown and as viscous as water. Checked when it was last changed: 65k miles on the change. I doubt if much oil was added either. And the last change was with whatever was on sale at the time.

Oil can last a long time. I also give a lot of credit to Ford.

sw03 · Feb 22, 2012

crashz said:
Good points Sw03.

The Honda dealer that we bought her car from is decent. Easy to work with. Some GM dealers that I have been too, including my selling dealer, are terrible. And the wording in the owners manual is clearly posed to cover GM's tail. We have the optional 5 yr /100K mile bumper-to bumper warranty on both cars, and this is where I see the dealers trying to weasel out of warranty work. I've gotten organized and have been (and will continue) clearly detailing every service that I perform with receipts and an electronic log for these two, that would match the maintenance minders in each vehicle. If all this work is for nothing, at least I would have peace of mind, and the vehicles will have a detailed maintenance log for any future owners.

On a side note, I'm doing something I've never done before: I plan on using only OEM filters and only Mobil 1 fluids for these two vehicles (the rest are diesels, and will continue to get the products that I'm feeling on that day). I picked M1 basically because they were the easiest to obtain and on-hand at all of the parts house close by. No allegence to M1, more of an experiment to see if I can maintain the same types of fluids and filters for the life of these vehicles.

BTW - I didn't know that there was a federal mandate on ZDDP. So thats not just standardized by the API, but actually mandated (I assume by the EPA)? I wonder if this is the reason that "racing" (for off road use) oils are becoming more popular? Nothing left of the regular oils that will protect a flat tappet cam/lifters anymore.

Strange on the GM issue. I have Amsoil air filters and there oil in my Lexus (3) from day 1...They never question these products.

Even my motorcycles have used Fram, AMsoil and some others without issues on UOA. The issue wth Fram is way over blown. My bota runs Napa or Pureone oil filters.

I do use Lc20 in several engines since it reduces wear etc. This is based on UOA and oil testing house comments.

On one car I have used every oil filter out there. I know toyo sucks and most others are the all the same. Amsoil is better but not 4X the price. There was a read in Lubrizol a few years ago by the EPA; I call them the feds.

I agree, M1 oil has gone up from 21 to 27 for 5 qts at Chinamart.

JeffandTamara · Oct 2, 2012

Hi: Been looking for some information. I bought 2 Gals of Harvest King Universal Motor Oil at Rural King. On the bottle it says for gas and diesel engines, but the API Service mark says SN. From what I have been able to find out, the API Service code for diesel engines should be CJ. I have seen some of the codes say CJ-4/SM.

The tractor I am putting it in is very low service. Last year it got 10 hrs and the year before was 8 hrs. Don't want to skimp, but no more that it gets used each year, I thought I would try to save a buck or two....