Apple hires 800 at $8/hr

[Gunny]

I agree with your points Dave, automation is quickly cutting the need for people to do a lot of things. But there will always be a need for "service" people, laborers, janitors, trash collectors, etc.

One of the problems is that these are jobs that a lot of the job seekers don't want to do, not because of the salary, but because they just don't want to do it.

Trash collection companies here are always hiring and they pay pretty good money, no weekend work, but they require that you get a CDL and are subjected to random drug testing. It's a nasty dirty stinking job and nobody wants to do it.

The companies that mow highway right of ways here pay a pretty good premium over minimum wage, but are never able to hire all the people they need. It's good money though it is seasonal work, but it's outdoors, in the sun and heat, pretty hard work, nobody wants to do it.

Anyway, the list goes on a lot more from there. There are a lot of people demanding more money, but what they really want is more money for the job they want to do.

Then we have the other group that irks me - those that will work at those type jobs, but they want to be paid under the table, so it doesn't affect their benefits.

And I also agree that minimum wages should be a regional thing. The minimum wages of some states would look like a princely sum to people in this area, but our cost of living is nowhere near that of those higher paying states.

Thanks for bearing with me, my ranting is over.

 

[GPintheMitten]

The days of making middle class incomes on jobs that basically involve only using the human body to move things have been going away for well over twenty years. It should be no surprise to anyone.

Instead of bemoaning company greed and other complaints about not being able to make a living doing unskilled labor, people need to understand that education is valuable.

In this country education to high school level is free. Yet many do not graduate and many barely pass. Like it or not all human beings are competing world wide. Nobody owes anybody a living.

Parents need to get there kids through school and support the teachers. Then either get a technical skill or college education.

I guarantee Apple is not paying software engineers minimum wage.

The rant could go on but you get the idea.

 

[dave1949]

Education is certainly important, and I agree that our national averages for high school completion and the level of competence attained are issues that need work.

Still, you cannot ignore the Bell Curve. By definition, and in reality, most people are average. Most of the middle class is represented by average people. Talented software engineers are not average. Therein lies the problem; we can't fool ourselves that everyone can be a software engineer if only they tried hard enough. Even if that were true, the demand for software engineers, rocket scientists, neurosurgeons, particle physicists, etc. would be exhausted.

In broad brush terms, the hollowing out of the middle class is mirrored by the hollowing out of jobs that the average person can do. Machines can do those jobs or require fewer people needed to do them, or someone far away can do them more cheaply, at least for some interim period of time while living standards globally equalize.

 

[300UGUY]

When I started in the factory, one job was a jobsetter. He was a experienced operator who ran machines, but was also the lead operator, training new guys, troubleshooting problems, setting up tooling. They were considered the soul of the plant. Now the plants are set up without these guys. Jobs are broken down into very simple, minute steps, and automated wherever possible. All production jobs are documented and setup so that anybody can do it. Operators have zero discretion on how to do the job. And the job is exactly the same, in the US or China, or Mexico. Jobsetters used to "upgrade" to skilled trades, engineering or management. That's all gone now, there is no path up. We have one group of managers and engineers, (and most of those jobs have been eliminated) and the production operator. Skilled trades have been eliminated as much as possible - everything is designed to be of modular, throw away components. And networks enable managers a world away to monitor the machines, in real time.

 

[Pixguy]

The days of making middle class incomes on jobs that basically involve only using the human body to move things have been going away for well over twenty years. It should be no surprise to anyone.

Instead of bemoaning company greed and other complaints about not being able to make a living doing unskilled labor, people need to understand that education is valuable.

In this country education to high school level is free. Yet many do not graduate and many barely pass. Like it or not all human beings are competing world wide. Nobody owes anybody a living.

Parents need to get (their) kids through school and support the teachers. Then either get a technical skill or college education.

I guarantee Apple is not paying software engineers minimum wage.

The rant could go on but you get the idea.

Well said :thumbsup:

When I started in the factory, one job was a jobsetter. He was a experienced operator who ran machines, but was also the lead operator, training new guys, troubleshooting problems, setting up tooling. They were considered the soul of the plant. Now the plants are set up without these guys. Jobs are broken down into very simple, minute steps, and automated wherever possible. All production jobs are documented and setup so that anybody can do it. Operators have zero discretion on how to do the job. And the job is exactly the same, in the US or China, or Mexico. Jobsetters used to "upgrade" to skilled trades, engineering or management. That's all gone now, there is no path up. We have one group of managers and engineers, (and most of those jobs have been eliminated) and the production operator. Skilled trades have been eliminated as much as possible - everything is designed to be of modular, throw away components. And networks enable managers a world away to monitor the machines, in real time.

You mean it's not entirely those dastardly corporations outsourcing all the jobs? It's modernization of the factories? Tell me it's not so.....

 

[GPintheMitten]

I agree that everyone can't be a rocket scientist, surgeon, software engineer, but there are those who have waisted their time at school, graduated high school with an 8th grade education.

Those who want to be in the middle class need to get middle class skills. You have to create a need for yourself, by what you know, the skills you achieve, or something. Maybe learn a trade, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, operating machinery, lathe, welder, heavy equipment, even CDL. The point is, you have to have something to offer from the gray matter as well as muscles and bones.

Sure, there is a lot more automation. So what are people going to do about that? Lament that they can't get a job in GM? Lament that there are robots in factories? People need to quit expecting companies to pay more than they have to for menial tasks or expect the government to take taxes from people who can make a living based on what they have done productively with their lives to give money to people who have done nothing or next to nothing productive with their lives or who have gained no appreciable skills.

To just bemoan a bad situation for oneself and not DO something about it, and expect that money will be taken out of my pocket (as a tax payer or as a stock holder via an IRA) and put it in theirs, justs makes me angry. People need to grow up and wake up.

If we were in a hunter gatherer society, how long would you want to hunt and gather for someone too lazy to do it for themselves.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Reminds me of the story of the ant and the grasshopper.

Grasshopper plays all summer while the ants stay busy building up reserves for the winter. Then the grasshopper wants the ants to take care of him when winter comes. These stories were created many 100s of years ago to teach young people about the need to work, prepare and not expect others to take care of them becaused they failed to do what was necessary. Apparently human nature hasnt changed in a few thousand years. But we can pretend it is a recent phenomenon based on automation or cheap labor. So theres cheap labor. What are you going to do about it to not let it make you dependent on the government or take money from someone else?

 

[GPintheMitten]

When I started in the factory, one job was a jobsetter. He was a experienced operator who ran machines, but was also the lead operator, training new guys, troubleshooting problems, setting up tooling. They were considered the soul of the plant. Now the plants are set up without these guys. Jobs are broken down into very simple, minute steps, and automated wherever possible. All production jobs are documented and setup so that anybody can do it. Operators have zero discretion on how to do the job. And the job is exactly the same, in the US or China, or Mexico. Jobsetters used to "upgrade" to skilled trades, engineering or management. That's all gone now, there is no path up. We have one group of managers and engineers, (and most of those jobs have been eliminated) and the production operator. Skilled trades have been eliminated as much as possible - everything is designed to be of modular, throw away components. And networks enable managers a world away to monitor the machines, in real time.

Again, what does that tell us about how to adapt to this situation. Just cry foul? Give up? Hate on companies? Or start preparing your kids from the 1st grade on up for reality. And "kids" in high school should not be insulated from this reality. They need to also take responsibilty for their actions and inactions.

We should not try to build a system to coddle 20% of the populatio for their entire lives because of the changes in industry or the economy.

 

[ultrarunner]

The biggest problems here are applicants than can't pass a drug test, fail a background test or cannot be covered because of DUI.

None of the above require any special talent.

My contractor friends get plenty of otherwise experienced people they can't hire because of DUIs

I've posted before about a guy I know earning 150k a year doing nothing but clearing sewers. His kids go to private school and his wife takes calls.

One man and one truck that is a working fool... only advertising is on his truck.

No matter when I call... he always comes out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty,_dangerous_and_demeaning

 

[dave1949]

I don't think anyone is saying folks shouldn't do for themselves, or blame something or some situation for not trying to earn a living. There will always be lazy people but I don't think it is quite that simple either.

The analogy of hunter-gatherer, or the ant and grasshopper are fine as far as they go. The problem arises when in an industrial or technological society, most people never had, or voluntarily (sort of) relinquish, the ability to be self-sufficient.

When we moved away from an agrarian society, people by and large lost the ability to be self-sufficient. Even for those who are food and energy self-sufficient today, the cost of material goods and services such as healthcare, far exceed the value of what they can produce beyond their own needs. Increasing production to meet those costs only ties people more closely to a non-agrarian society and further away from self-sufficiency.

In pre-agrarian and agrarian times, people did receive help when needed. Supporting others in a time of need is not a new concept. It is much more impersonal these days; our taxes help people we will never meet or know, as opposed to helping a neighbor or family member. In the big picture, there is a reason for that. Being a member of an industrial society means being a cog in the machinery. A cog isn't good for much by itself, it takes the cooperation of the other cogs to make a whole.

There is an inherent system of anonymous co-dependency at work. We all like the benefits of that entire machine of many cogs on the whole. Better quality of and longer life, leisure time, mobility, and freedom to pursue what interests us intellectually are examples. We have all benefited in some way from that "machine" arrangement that is based on, perhaps demanded, giving up autonomy and self-sufficiency.

When the machine has hiccups, what do the rest of us owe the idled cogs? I don't think we owe them perpetual welfare, but I do think we owe them something. We did enjoy the benefits of their participation in the machinery, after all. The problem is not lazy people so much as how to re-use/re-cycle cogs efficiently when the machine is constantly changing at an ever faster pace. That assumes that there is a machine for every cog. I'm not convinced that is true anymore and I think it is even less likely to be true in the future.

 

[GPintheMitten]

You raise very good points Dave. I agree with helping those who need it whether we know them or not. But I am concerned about generations of welfare dependents, sometimes several generations. And im very concerned with the federal government trying to spread the money out evenly. We are not there yet, but socialism says produce all that you can and use only what you need and your needs will be met regardless of what you produce. We have a lot of liberals who think and vote that way.

The govt is spending more than it takes in and continues to promise more and more. Once there are more people getting more from the govt than they put in, there will be no one willing to stop the bleeding. We will go the way of the Roman Empire but it wont be caused from invasions by the Goths. We will do it to ourselves.

There may not be enough machine for every cog but each cog needs to do what he can to be needed. We are along way from that.

 

[ultrarunner]

Dave, always enjoy your posts and prospective.

I think the other side is seeing just how many can go to the same schools, live in the same neighborhoods, see the same doctors without ever paying in or supporting the system.

It really is quite common for me to know generations being on assistance and there is the rationale of why work when all I need is provided.

 

[dave1949]

You raise very good points Dave. I agree with helping those who need it whether we know them or not. But I am concerned about generations of welfare dependents, sometimes several generations. And im very concerned with the federal government trying to spread the money out evenly. We are not there yet, but socialism says produce all that you can and use only what you need and your needs will be met regardless of what you produce. We have a lot of liberals who think and vote that way.

The govt is spending more than it takes in and continues to promise more and more. Once there are more people getting more from the govt than they put in, there will be no one willing to stop the bleeding. We will go the way of the Roman Empire but it wont be caused from invasions by the Goths. We will do it to ourselves.

There may not be enough machine for every cog but each cog needs to do what he can to be needed. We are along way from that.

Dave, always enjoy your posts and prospective.

I think the other side is seeing just how many can go to the same schools, live in the same neighborhoods, see the same doctors without ever paying in or supporting the system.

It really is quite common for me to know generations being on assistance and there is the rationale of why work when all I need is provided.

There are states that put a cap on the number of years a person may receive welfare. I guess that applies to the able-bodied, but that can be/is cheated also. I'm not sure what became of it, but here in Maine they were discussing a five year cap. A cap of whatever length sounds fair to me. I think if you haven't figured it out/got additional training in a couple of years, you aren't trying.

 

[ultrarunner]

Most typical is a woman age 40 with grandchildren... mom is on Drugs or not in the picture.

Unless disabled/elderly... the key to assistance is dependant minor children.

I've actually known people that have more children to get a larger housing voucher and more benefits.

Lots of Grandmothers taking care of grandchildren.

In over 30 years... I've only know two families that left the program as opposed to those that pass housing certificates from one generation to the next.

 

[dave1949]

Locally we have a disproportionately high number of older people who are economically marooned along with having chronic health issues.

Last week my 93-year-old neighbor lady's Life Alert brought the EMS squad to her house. She's mostly okay, just fell and got a head gash. She had all the doors locked, no key or lock box outside. The VFD had to break in finally--through three separately locked doors. She refused transport to the hospital for a checkup. Widow of a Navy Vet, lives alone in her own home, has no plans to go anywhere.

We have lots of folks like that around ages 65-75 who account for the majority of our EMS calls. They aren't ever going to work. I have no idea how many are receiving some form of welfare support. Probably most are on MaineCare/Medicaid.

That is more typical of the poverty in our very rural area. Maine has the highest average age residents of all the states. It's getting to be an economic issue for the state budget.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Good point about the elderly Dave. I did not factor them in when posting. There are those who are just scraping by or who need help and deserve it. It's sad.

My sister was on welfare for about a year. Her worthless husband abandoned her and their 2 young daughters. This was about 40 years ago. She used the help to go to school and became an xray technician. Raised her 2 daughters who each got an education and are in the health care industry. My sister just retired last year.

This is a good example of how a safety net should work. Temporary help to get back on your feet.

Edit to add: My sister's determination to make it was in part due to a good family upbringing by my parents. Thats the othet part of the formula for success is a stable moral family environment. It doesnt guarantee success and it can occur without it for some determined people but there are too many kids growing up without a good family.

 

[PILOON]

A lot depends on the task involved.
If for an engineer than that is a big no no.
If to sweep floors Ok,
If to play/test new games or insert transistors in a PC board OK
It is all about skill levels required IMHO.
AND
much better to pay $8.00/hr to a US/Cdn citizen than $2.00/day to a chicom that contributes nothing to our economy.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Good point about the elderly Dave. I did not factor them in when posting. There are those who are just scraping by or who need help and deserve it. It's sad.

My sister was on welfare for about a year. Her worthless husband abandoned her and their 2 young daughters. This was about 40 years ago. She used the help to go to school and became an xray technician. Raised her 2 daughters who each got an education and are in the health care industry. My sister just retired last year.

This is a good example of how a safety net should work. Temporary help to get back on your feet.

Edit to add: My sister's determination to make it was in part due to a good family upbringing by my parents. Thats the othet part of the formula for success is a stable moral family environment. It doesnt guarantee success and it can occur without it for some determined people but there are too many kids growing up without a good family.

Upbringing can be key factor in how life goes for us.

 

[houstonscott]

A lot depends on the task involved. If for an engineer than that is a big no no. If to sweep floors Ok, If to play/test new games or insert transistors in a PC board OK It is all about skill levels required IMHO. AND much better to pay $8.00/hr to a US/Cdn citizen than $2.00/day to a chicom that contributes nothing to our economy.

The problem is the chicom does a better job for $2 than the typical $8 type here in America. HS

 

[300UGUY]

The problem is the chicom does a better job for $2 than the typical $8 type here in America. HS

It's not just factory jobs. The largest employer in my town used to be a insurance company. They keep downsizing, while increasing the foriegn workers. Computer operations are mostly gone, along with accounting and actuaries. Most of these jobs went to India. One of my neighbor's had 24 years in as a accountant, got let go. Meanwhile, the top management has had multi million dollar bonuses. It's the way corporate America works these days.