Are Automakers This Stupid?

[Copperhead]

You obviously did not read the article. The truck is electric and the NG turbine is just for regenerating the battery packs. 2000 real HP to the drive wheels. Designed for doing the standard 80,000 lb gross thing that the majority of semi trucks are used for. This is NOT one of those NG engine things that some of the LTL carriers are using now. NG for this is only for electric generation with a designed 1200 mile range. Packs can also be shore power charged when the truck is not working. And the design is such that cargo capacities are similar for current trucks. Still be able to throw 46K lb in the box and not exceed gross.

I like the idea. Quiet, full torque all the way at the start (electric drive motors have full torque at the start), and not a single gear shift to be found... manual or auto. Direct drive electric motor. The initial cost is pretty high as they have proposed, but you can bet some serious tax advantages from the Gooberment will be available and the cost for NG to operate the turbine generator will be roughly half the fuel cost currently. If it can be justified on paper, I will likely take a serious look at this one for my next semi truck.

Why would a hazmat team be required for cleanup for one of these? No fuel spills, even in a rollover. NG just dissipates. And the CNG tanks are up behind the sleeper, so any normal accidents, the tanks are not affected in any way. Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.

 

[daugen]

Oh! And any time there's an accident you can expect that a hazmat team will be required.
I think that most hazmat responses have been to plain old diesel fuel leaking, anytime a truck overturns, seems they should improve
the integrity of those fuel tanks, that would be a good place to start.

EV cars are a whole Brave New World. Starting with the Priii, fire and rescue have had to learn how to deal with high voltage exposure in wrecked vehicles.
But so far, does not seem to be a problem. I got out when EV was coming in, but went to Philadelphia Gas & Electric class for firemen, and I loved the one guy who said
that sometimes the best response was in one word....RUN. Dealing with low lying gases, chlorine, etc etc, all hazmat stuff some of which without an approach suit even firemen with air pacs can get badly hurt. Train wrecks and bad interstate truck wrecks seem to be the major problem. But we've had this problem a long time, folks really don't want to know what's in those tank cars clank clanking by on the rails.

Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.
lighter than air, heavier than air. I thought CNG/LNG/Propane was all the same; clearly it's not.
Can you explain Copperhead? This is a common hazard, most of us have propane at home in one form or another.
It's the stuff that pools at your feet that is seriously bad news when something sparks...

My foreign car mechanic says all kinds of Bosch fuel injector pumps are failing in the 50-80k mileage range due to accelerated wear, I think
due to ULSD, maybe due to design of common rail. But they are not holding up, and I would think that would be classified as part of the emission system and be covered out
to 100K, but maybe not.

Some of this tech being put on cars I don't think is tested enough. Rushing to meet a critical model year delivery, yeah we'll fix it at the first oil change...My Ram truck has been reflashed five times already.

Fork lifts, zero turns, older tractors, propane(maybe not the right term?) has been used a long time. I worked third shift in a Union Camp paper bag factory working my way through college and I'll never get the smell of that propane exhaust out of my memory. Now this is almost 50 years ago, I'll bet those fork lifts run cleaner now.

 

[rd_macgregor]

FWIW, Natural gas is mostly methane (a 1-carbon molecule) with varying quantities of other gases (like butane). Ethane is 2-carbon, propane is 3-carbon and butane is 4-carbon (and the series continues on). I think most of the typical gases in the alkane (methane) series are naturally odorless, so a mecaptan odorant is usually added to facilitate leak detection.
It is my understanding that LPG is a mixture of propane and butane.

 

[3930dave]

You obviously did not read the article. The truck is electric and the NG turbine is just for regenerating the battery packs. 2000 real HP to the drive wheels. Designed for doing the standard 80,000 lb gross thing that the majority of semi trucks are used for. This is NOT one of those NG engine things that some of the LTL carriers are using now. NG for this is only for electric generation with a designed 1200 mile range. Packs can also be shore power charged when the truck is not working. And the design is such that cargo capacities are similar for current trucks. Still be able to throw 46K lb in the box and not exceed gross.

I like the idea. Quiet, full torque all the way at the start (electric drive motors have full torque at the start), and not a single gear shift to be found... manual or auto. Direct drive electric motor. The initial cost is pretty high as they have proposed, but you can bet some serious tax advantages from the Gooberment will be available and the cost for NG to operate the turbine generator will be roughly half the fuel cost currently. If it can be justified on paper, I will likely take a serious look at this one for my next semi truck.

Why would a hazmat team be required for cleanup for one of these? No fuel spills, even in a rollover. NG just dissipates. And the CNG tanks are up behind the sleeper, so any normal accidents, the tanks are not affected in any way. Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.

I am an NG fan. If my govts here were actually serious about the environment (instead of just green-washing taxes), we'd have a big push on building out public CNG refill stations. As you may know Cu, there has been some CNG build-out going on for the 401 corridor, Ontario and Quebec, to support commercial long-haul. Baby steps, but good to see.

NG is the cleanest burning hydro-carbon widely available, and as you well-stated, has safety advantages over propane, and for that matter, gasoline.

Rgds, D.

 

[daugen]

there is always a standing joke of sorts that too often products are designed to last until one day after the warranty runs out.
but even warranties seem to get trumped when parts of the car start to kill you, like Takata air bags sending metal shrapnel into your face.
Luckily for most of us there have not been problems with trucks, but the point is that now the automakers are putting components in cars that
can seriously malfunction and be downright dangerous to you outside of the warranty period. How about an adaptive cruise control that develops a mind of its own
and floors the pedal, and doesn't let up... The steering wheel in my Outback will tug itself and the car back to the center of the lane just by looking at the road lines.
I can only imagine what that will be like when it malfunctions. So much complexity, AI is here and what happens when HAL won't listen to you?

 

[pmsmechanic]

Just going to add here that propane is heavier than air and natural gas is lighter than air. That's why propane is more dangerous. Both produce about the same hp in an internal combustion engine.

 

[daugen]

I just reread HHR's original post and realize, mea culpa, we have gone far afield.
Downsizing engines, well look at Ford's turbo three. Mainstream three cylinders.
I read all the car tests, it's apparently ok. And I have to believe it runs cleanly and meets California standards.

could part of the "no replacement for displacement" which I sure grew up with have also
included the benefits of having that huge iron block to absorb heat? These little engines are all anorexic; there's a lot less metal
in them. But I have to assume offset by far superior cooling systems and more modern metallurgy. Maybe.

thanks for info on propane. Like gasoline, need to respect it.

 

[3930dave]

there is always a standing joke of sorts that too often products are designed to last until one day after the warranty runs out.
but even warranties seem to get trumped when parts of the car start to kill you, like Takata air bags sending metal shrapnel into your face.
Luckily for most of us there have not been problems with trucks, but the point is that now the automakers are putting components in cars that
can seriously malfunction and be downright dangerous to you outside of the warranty period. How about an adaptive cruise control that develops a mind of its own
and floors the pedal, and doesn't let up... The steering wheel in my Outback will tug itself and the car back to the center of the lane just by looking at the road lines.
I can only imagine what that will be like when it malfunctions. So much complexity, AI is here and what happens when HAL won't listen to you?

Not picking on Subbies (lots of good Mech engineering there), but a mechanic friend had a good example of what can Go Wrong.... Go Wrong,.....

Customer's wife tweaks the sideview mirror on the garage door frame going into the garage with their brand new Subaru. She's really upset, hubby downplays it, not to worry, etc...... He jumps in the car next morning to head to work, it won't start.

Had to be towed to the dealer to have the collision avoidance system reset, and that mirror fixed/re-calibrated.

Adding complexity adds failure modes. What cracks me up about this problem above is the life-style marketing associated with that product - I can picture jockeying the car around in the back of Algonquin park with a kayak on the roof, and tweaking that mirror system on a tree. With that "lifestyle", there are parts of Canada where you could be walking for a day or more before getting to a traveled road.

I watch little TV, so the plot line has probably already been done..... how long before somebody spoofs/hacks a car into "avoiding" a collision on a coastal highway and drives off a cliff ?

Rgds, D.

 

[daugen]

I'm sure Dave the car makers wish they never had to install all this safety stuff but the Feds now won't give your car a top safety rating unless you
have the collision avoidance/auto braking whatever each company wants to call it. And just like Tesla's teething problems, and you can't fix driver stupidity,
folks will abuse the system, read books, text, do anything but drive.
I'm also going to bet there's a whole new area of law that's going to crop up dealing with accidents involving auto AI.

 

[tcartwri]

Well, Nikola is on target to release a electric semi truck that uses a NG turbine to drive a on board generator to replenish batteries. 2000 hp at the wheels. That will take care of some serious emissions from traditional semi trucks.

Nikola Motor gets $2.3B worth of preorders for 2,HP, electric semi-trailer truck | Computerworld

Pretty cool. I wonder who backed that? Development cost must have been eye watering.