Backhoe swing “spongy”

   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #1  

Quantumkev

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2022
Messages
31
Tractor
Ford 4500 Industrial Loader/Backhoe
1967 ford 4000 (or is that 4500?) industrial tractor with 753 backhoe.

Had several issues but finally up and going and working “mostly” well… but then I have a problem with the swing. It swings very aggressively when i operate the swing lever but it is also very “spongy”… when I let go of the lever it carries on swinging, then “bounces back” like there is a ton of air in there or something.

Can anyone give me a quick overview of HOW the swing cylinders SHOULD be connected, and give me an incling of where the air could be in the system. Pretty much all of my other cylinders have bled themselves and I have very little sponginess anywhere else in the system.

Appreciate any help/advice you can give.

Will layer in more info/pictures when I get out to the tractor location again.
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #2  
Are you sure it's not just slop in the swing bushings? My 310 has a sloppy bouncy swing, but the Kubota does not. I assumed it was just accumulated bushing slop.

It would be nice it it was just air. I've never figured out how to tell if a cylinder had trapped air in it. Hmmmm.....does it even matter if only one cylinder in a pair of cylinders has air in it?

rScotty
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #3  
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #4  
Is the swing chain wore out?

The dual cylinders are PULL only. One side pulls on the chain. That forces the other cylinder to extend since they are both connected to the same chain. If the chain links are wore out and sloppy it would do what you describe
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #5  
Nobody gives the customer extra parts for no reason. Everything has a cost. Therefore, i would assume that if they put a bleeder on the cylinder, there is somethingabout the design that more or less required its inclusion.

One such reason would be if the cylinders cannot bottom out befcause something else hits first. The only way we get air out of cylinders is by cycling them to the endsof their travels where there is very little space left for air to sit. That usually gets you ‘90% there’ as far as purging air, on the very first cycle. But if those swing cylinders can only compress each other to maybe 80% of their actual travel, that would leave a huge air pocket. Just a theory, didnt even look at pics. But im guessing the bleeders are relevant!
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #6  
Nobody gives the customer extra parts for no reason. Everything has a cost. Therefore, i would assume that if they put a bleeder on the cylinder, there is somethingabout the design that more or less required its inclusion.

One such reason would be if the cylinders cannot bottom out befcause something else hits first. The only way we get air out of cylinders is by cycling them to the endsof their travels where there is very little space left for air to sit. That usually gets you ‘90% there’ as far as purging air, on the very first cycle. But if those swing cylinders can only compress each other to maybe 80% of their actual travel, that would leave a huge air pocket. Just a theory, didnt even look at pics. But im guessing the bleeders are relevant!
Take a look at the parts diagram in message #3, and see if that makes sense. The breather (17) is replaced by an equalizer hose assembly (18) between the cylinders. My guess is that when old seals began to leak, that breather became a faucet.

The system looks to be designed to operate with some trapped air. If the problem is too much trapped air, the OP could just pull one end of the hose loose for a moment and let that side of the cylinder return to atmospheric pressure.

It's an odd setup - functional, but not sophisticated. I'd not be surprised to hear there are some 753 hoe owners who have come up with a better solution.
rScotty
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #7  
Ok, you're right. I read post #3 and took the word 'bleeder' at face value. The parts diagram notes that part as a breather which is a totally different thing. The bleeder could have been on the pressure side of the piston and could be used to solve some issue about the inclination of the cylinder or the port orientation on the cylinder etc, the breather is definitely on the unpressurized side of the piston and would have nothing to do with air being on the pressurized side of the piston.

The thing about the crossover tube as far as i know is just about dust/moisture intrusion. A breather cap isn't a very good filter (in micron rating) and over time enough fine material could be sucked into the cylinder to become a wear issue, plus if you submerge the breather cap and cycle the cylinder in you would suck actual water into the cylinder. Does operator fully swing both directions to 'purge' the water, does that even work, or does a good portion of it just end up staying in there and corroding the low spot of the tube? At least if the two cylinders are hooked together with a crossover tube that is INTACT then you minimize dust and water intrusion right up until the tube fails. :)

Car rack and pinion steering assemblies have a tube such as this as well.

And since i finally looked for pics of what this setup actually looks like, i came across this explanation of the two single acting cylinders being plumbed through a 'balancing valve' which may be relevant to OP's symptom:

An explanation of how the system works:
Two lines come off the main control valve and lead to what I will call a balancing valve mounted on the cross support bars forming the X

From the bottom of that valve the 2 lines feed each cylinder,
at each cylinder from the balancing valve, pressure is maintained equally when the control lever is in neutral( as long as there is no air in either side), no leaking past the bypass check valve located inside the balancing valve, and no leak in either cylinder, any of which could cause a loss of pressure on one side.

When you move the lever to swing right, you send pressure through one side of the balancing valve to the cylinder (on your right side as you are sitting in the seat),
that same pressure inside the balancing valve while your swinging right moves a valve inside the balancing valve allowing pressure from the left cylinder to be sent against the closing force of a check valve with a heavy spring holding it closed.

The force from the right cylinder as you swing right pulls the left cylinder with the chain compressing the fluid in it, pressure then builds up on the left cylinder forcing the check valve open allowing the fluid in the left cylinder to bleed past it back to the opposite line coming from the main control valve pressure is not being applied to
During the process of swinging right, although the fluid in the left cylinder is being released, a ( lower than main hydraulic pressure) is being maintained in the left cylinder by the spring holding the check valve closed. This allows a lower but constant pressure in the left cylinder as the main line pressure is being applied to the right cylinder, therefore keeping the chain tight
If your chain is not tight, you are losing pressure on the side that is loose as you are pulling the opposite direction.

To troubleshoot, first see if there is air in the loose side cylinder, there are 2 bleed valves on the balancing valve, one on each side for each cylinder . Note since the lines from the cylinders to the valve cross, the right bleed valve looking rearward bleeds the left cylinder, and the left bleed valve bleeds the right cylinder.
Bleed the side where the hose from the loose cylinder connects.

If you are sure there is no air in the loose side of the system, it means you are leaking fluid pressure either inside the loose side cylinder, or inside the balancing valve.
Since there is only one check valve releasing pressure from the cylinder that is being pulled as you swing, a leak past the check valve would cause either opposite cylinder to be lose as you swing either left or right.

Unhooking the lines and letting the backhoe sit idle is most likely to cause air in your lines. Bleeding would be the first thing to try, then checking for pressure loss on the loose side cylinder and if found changing seals, if no problem exists there, remove the balancing valve and pressure check it as directed below, if it does not hold pressure disassemble it and clean it while checking for wear and changing any seals.

If you can do a bench test, rig up a way to apply pressure to the cylinder, even air pressure will work, and if you do not loose pressure, and you previously eliminated air in the system being a problem by bleeding it, your problem has to be in the balancing valve.

To bench test the balancing valve remove it, rig up a way to pressurize the port leading to the cylinder that the chain is lose on, Both TO CYL) ports to going each cylinder should hold pressure bench testing.

It is basically this simple, while the balancing valve is sitting idle with no input pressure to either top port on the balancing valve which are labeled with an arrow and the words To Valve, both bottom ports with arrows labeled To CYL should hold pressure applied to them. If they don't the valve is leaking inside.

If the cylinder does not hold pressure, it has a leak inside.
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #8  
My 1978 550 backhoe had the breather setup and I converted to the crossover. As stated here, dirt, gunk, water and oil that leaks by the piston gets in the base of the cylinder.

However, you may have a piston nut that backed off on one cylinder. You should be able to determine which one fairly easily.

Not difficult to take out of the frame. Move the boom to one side, disconnect chain from rod, pull cylinder out and disconnect hose.
Be careful when disassembling, or whoever does it. I've seen people put the rod end in a press or turn the rod with a bar and break the ear(s) off of the rod
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy”
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Thanks for all the comments so far. I will try and get over there tomorrow and get some pictures/video to add some clarity to this thread.
 
   / Backhoe swing “spongy” #10  
Be careful when disassembling, or whoever does it. I've seen people put the rod end in a press or turn the rod with a bar and break the ear(s) off of the rod
I normally do clamp the crosstube end in my press (as a vise, basically) to remove piston nuts. I've never come close to snapping anything off but i guess it's a good thing to have in mind as a possibility to be cautious of!
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

72in Bucket (A49251)
72in Bucket (A49251)
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4x4 SUV (A46684)
2012 Jeep Grand...
Tooth Bar (A49251)
Tooth Bar (A49251)
2009 Ford Flex SUV (A46684)
2009 Ford Flex SUV...
Komatsu WA250-5L Wheel Loader (A47371)
Komatsu WA250-5L...
PENDING SELLER CONFIRMATIONS (A45679)
PENDING SELLER...
 
Top