Baling with a compact - minimum size?

[yankee7]

Not to doubt you, but your experience runs counter to what almost everyone else is reporting. What brand/model/size baler and and other hay equipment are you dragging? Is there a certain technique -- other than going slower -- that you're using? Have you had a lot of breakdowns?

Thanks for the alternative POV!

Dave

I hear this over and over while I routinely use a Kubota L2550 and sometimes even a BX 1500 for baling. The L does perfectly. The BX you have to go slower than youd like on the uphills. Square balers take only a few HP to run unless youre try to cram thru wet hay.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

Not to doubt you, but your experience runs counter to what almost everyone else is reporting. What brand/model/size baler and and other hay equipment are you dragging? Is there a certain technique -- other than going slower -- that you're using? Have you had a lot of breakdowns?

Thanks for the alternative POV!

Dave

OK. To start with the seemingly ridiculous - I use my IH 37 baler on my BX1500. Slow on hills, but still Ok for reasonably tight bales. We dont like them too tight so that excess moisture is not trapped. Amazingly, the main problem with doing reasonably efficient work with this setup is that the baler knotter wont work at 540 pto rpm so I have to idle the BX back to get the RPM around 400-450. On level ground its still ok, but uphill the HST wont pull in high and low range is too slow. At 10 PTOHP a big windrow must be done very slowly. Full rpm gives decent thruput speed, but leaves a long row of nice wafers and twine with maybe a good bale mixed in. I was really ecstatic the 1st time I used it with the BX wide open - - til I looked back!
The Kubota L2550 28ptoHP is a totally different story. It has plenty of power to do anything the baler is capable of on any terrain. The balers limitation of around 450 rpm just limits how fast we can pull it without it choking. When that happens it stalls the baler - the big flywheel stops and the tractor keeps driving the input at the flywheel slip clutch. You notice this instantly and disenage PTO and go unchoke the baler and slow groundspeed down a little. With regard to surging due to the oscillating ram - this is a balanced mechanism. The surge is caused by the resistance to compression of the hay and the force needed to drive the bales along the chute. This makes the pto harder to drive during the compression stroke. Nicely dried hay goes thru the baler smoothly producing firm bales without huge ram force. The induced surge is gentle and kinda neat really. Going even harder with dry hay is no problem either, but the strings are too tight for pleasant bale handling. Then if you really want max stress try some wet hay. The baler surges much more and jams out rock hard bales unless you loosen the friction shoe in the chute nearly all the way. The bales mold unless they are very loose packed.-- Its a time not to be baling.
I also use the L2550 to run the 7' Hesston Haybine and the 16' Tedder. The 70HP Mahindra is total overkill and I only ever use it for the weight when pulling the hay wagon behind the baler. Based on what Im hearing about other balers requiring lots of power and tractor weight I would recommend the IH if you can find one in good condition. To tell the truth I cant see why it would be better than any other, but my experience with it is so different from the group story on baler/tractor requirements that I can only recommend IT.
larry

 

[yankee7]

OK...now you've gone and confused me even more! (easy to do! ).

I had all but given up on the idea of doing my own haying/baling since it seemed that it would require a larger -- and more expensive -- tractor than I can afford, or using "custom" smaller implements that are prohibitively expensive and not widely found on the used market. Now you come along and tell me that if I have a 28 - 35 HP (engine hp) tractor that I should be able to do the job! Since I'm not planning on rushing out to buy haying equipment, and since haying isn't really my primary purpsoe for the tractor, I'll still proceed with my plans to get a 28 - 35 HP unit, but at least I'll know I have the option to hay if I want to later on. Thanks!

Dave

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Square balers take only a few HP to run unless youre try to cram thru wet hay.
larry

That probably should read "SOME square balers only take a few hp......"


Your IH37 is what would be considered a smaller baler. Just about every brand built small capacity balers and large capacity models. In later years, just as the market trend is with EVERYTHING "farm", there were finally small, medium, large, and extra large.

I started off years ago with a New Holland 273. I've seen them behind 8N Fords, C FarmAlls, and a host of older, smaller, lower hp tractors. They did just fine.

I currently have a Deere 336. Run it at anything like an acceptable ground speed in even the driest of hay and it would probably choke the life out of one of those smaller tractors. A friend has a fairly new Deere 348 he's trying to sell me. The 348 is a modern HIGH CAPACITY baler. In "average" conditions it hammers my 60 HP Deere 2440 and flat puts a hurtin' on my 150 Massey. You can only run a baler so slow.

But yes, find a nice SMALLER baler and 17 to 20 hp is more than enough in most cases. The single biggest liability to a tractor that size when baling is it's typically a little light weight. A baler, especially one with a wagon attached can shove it right on down a grassy hillside.

 

[Willl]

Back when I baled hay as a teen, the bailer was 'pony engine' driven. No PTO.

I would think this would drop tractor HP requirements some ?

Do they still do pony engine bailers ?

 

[JoeinTX]

Easy, SPY', ain't nobody said anything about your momma or nothing.


Can you, ever at all, bale hay with a smaller tractor? Yeah, there's a narrow margin there where you can. Is it common or in great use today or really popular? No. Is the equipment to do it with a 25hp tractor easy to find? No, not that much anymore. The makers did produce small square balers in the 1940/50/60s that would work for small tractors and small operations but those aren't very commonly found anymore. And, if you do, many of them are not worth the PITA to make them work anymore. All of the new mainline OEMs recommend 35 pto HP minimum on their smallest square balers.

Made a quick swim through eBay and Craigslist and I found one baler, an old Ford 542 in working shape, that might come into this. Maybe not since I'm not up on Ford balers.


So, when someone like Yankee7 (who appears to be new to all of this) asks this question...........I'm gonna give a general "no" because of the caveats involved. Look for an older machine....does he know anything about them or would he know one if he saw one? Got any hills? Hay wagon? What kind of crop? Good with fixing old stuff? Like "down" time since the reliability of most of the machines in question is also going to be in question. I would recommend trying to find the baler first (if possible or reasonable) before he buys his tractor just so he knows what kind of tractor he's going to need or if he wants to try to hay.

So, yeah sure, Yankee it is "possible" to make a few square bales with a 25hp CUT. BUT, I wouldn't want to be the one doing it.

"Do they still do pony engine bailers ?"

I don't know of any company still making them but that is one option........I've seen one in my entire life and never run across one for sale.

 

[WilliamBos]

How about on of these MF 1800 Series Small Rectangular Balers

The 1843S or 1843N would work well, I think, if being dropped on the ground.

Will

 

[yankee7]

Thanks Joe for your candid response.

Being new to tractors and of course haying, I wouldn't know an older baler that I could use on a CUT if I tripped over it...but that's where a forum like this can help a lot. As to being mechanically knowledgeable, I've done some of my own auto repairs and repairs of equipment/machines. That said, I'm far from being called a "mechanic". What that boils down to is that given that I'll have a very small haying operation, I'm going to have to go "cheap", which I realize means that I'm going to have to make do with older (ancient?), equipment that will need repair. Do I really want to do that? No, but as I said in the beginning, if I can't find anyone else to do it I might have to.

Of course I could continue to simply let the grass grow and not harvest it, but it seems like such a waste. Also, I don't know how healthy it is for the grass to not be harvested regularly.

Where I'm at right now is trying to figure out what tractor (size/brand) to get that will handle my other projects: moving rocks, dirt, etc.; repairing/making irrigation ditches; making a slab foundation for a new pole barn; moving materials; clearing snow from my 100' gravel drive; drilling post holes. My acreage is pretty level...almost "flat", so no hills to deal with. I'm leaning towards a 30 HP tractor with a FEL and BH to start and adding the other stuff as I go. If I happen to come across a baler, etc. that might work for me, then maybe I'll attempt getting into the hay game, but for now I'm driving myself crazy enough with the rest of it.

Dave

Easy, SPY', ain't nobody said anything about your momma or nothing.


Can you, ever at all, bale hay with a smaller tractor? Yeah, there's a narrow margin there where you can. Is it common or in great use today or really popular? No. Is the equipment to do it with a 25hp tractor easy to find? No, not that much anymore. The makers did produce small square balers in the 1940/50/60s that would work for small tractors and small operations but those aren't very commonly found anymore. And, if you do, many of them are not worth the PITA to make them work anymore. All of the new mainline OEMs recommend 35 pto HP minimum on their smallest square balers.

Made a quick swim through eBay and Craigslist and I found one baler, an old Ford 542 in working shape, that might come into this. Maybe not since I'm not up on Ford balers.


So, when someone like Yankee7 (who appears to be new to all of this) asks this question...........I'm gonna give a general "no" because of the caveats involved. Look for an older machine....does he know anything about them or would he know one if he saw one? Got any hills? Hay wagon? What kind of crop? Good with fixing old stuff? Like "down" time since the reliability of most of the machines in question is also going to be in question. I would recommend trying to find the baler first (if possible or reasonable) before he buys his tractor just so he knows what kind of tractor he's going to need or if he wants to try to hay.

So, yeah sure, Yankee it is "possible" to make a few square bales with a 25hp CUT. BUT, I wouldn't want to be the one doing it.

"Do they still do pony engine bailers ?"

I don't know of any company still making them but that is one option........I've seen one in my entire life and never run across one for sale.

 

[yankee7]

I saw these on the Net, and while I can't seem to find a site that has any prices right now, it seems to me that they're pretty pricey, so whiel they would probably work great for what I want, they exceed my budget BIG time.

Dave

How about on of these MF 1800 Series Small Rectangular Balers

The 1843S or 1843N would work well, I think, if being dropped on the ground.

Will

 

[SPYDERLK]

How about on of these MF 1800 Series Small Rectangular Balers

The 1843S or 1843N would work well, I think, if being dropped on the ground.

Will

I bet thats expensive. I paid $500 for mine and itll do full 5' width 2.5' height windrows that wouldnt pass under the tractor. Thats a special niche use item. Big premium on that usually along with the insult of not being suitable for full sized windrows.
larry

 

[rankrank1]

I did my first baling with a compact trator (1977 Kubota L285 with FEL 26.5 PTO horsepower) 2 weeks ago. As I already owned my tractor I sought out a New Holland model 65 compact baler and lucked into finding one for $200.
The New Holland 65 has a 12x16 bale chamber (as compared to 14x18 or 16x18 that most other balers have). The model 65 was made from 1960 to 1965 and targeted towards the small tractor user (such as N series Fords and jubilees).
Anyway, my tractor did fine as I just dropped the bales on the ground, but I think I could handle towing a small wagon if I had one. I only used 5.25 gallons of diesel to bush hog cut(hope to use my sickle bar in future but it needs some TLC), twice rake (once to tedd and once to windrow), and bale 4.25 acres of thick tall pasture grass.
Stick to the smaller capacity balers and you can get by with 22-25 PTO hp on non-hilly ground as long as the tractor has a sturdy driveline (avoid tractors that are glorified lawn tractors as their driveline will not handle the plunger jerks even if they say they are 25 PTO hp).
My tractor does not even have live (or independent PTO) which is an inconvenience, but I was easliy able to work around this by zigging out of the windrow when needed to keep from overfeeding.
Lastly, FMJ is always a good source of info. Also, ZZVYB6 has many posts about baling with a compact tractor (he uses a JD14T baler) and his posts are the posts that inspired me to give baling a try with a compact tractor( I need to thank him for his many helpful posts).

 

[SPYDERLK]

I did my first baling with a compact trator (1977 Kubota L285 with FEL 26.5 PTO horsepower) 2 weeks ago. As I already owned my tractor I sought out a New Holland model 65 compact baler and lucked into finding one for $200.
The New Holland 65 has a 12x16 bale chamber (as compared to 14x18 or 16x18 that most other balers have). The model 65 was made from 1960 to 1965 and targeted towards the small tractor user (such as N series Fords and jubilees).
Anyway, my tractor did fine as I just dropped the bales on the ground, but I think I could handle towing a small wagon if I had one. I only used 5.25 gallons of diesel to bush hog cut(hope to use my sickle bar in future but it needs some TLC), twice rake (once to tedd and once to windrow), and bale 4.25 acres of thick tall pasture grass.
Stick to the smaller capacity balers and you can get by with 22-25 PTO hp on non-hilly ground as long as the tractor has a sturdy driveline (avoid tractors that are glorified lawn tractors as their driveline will not handle the plunger jerks even if they say they are 25 PTO hp).
My tractor does not even have live (or independent PTO) which is an inconvenience, but I was easliy able to work around this by zigging out of the windrow when needed to keep from overfeeding.
Lastly, FMJ is always a good source of info. Also, ZZVYB6 has many posts about baling with a compact tractor (he uses a JD14T baler) and his posts are the posts that inspired me to give baling a try with a compact tractor( I need to thank him for his many helpful posts).

Sounds like this one is harder to drive than the IH37 which does the standard 14X18" bale. I imagine the 37 must have a heavier flywheel because it does not exhibit plunger jerks even when packing rock hard wet bales.
larry

 

[zzvyb6]

If your baler is jerking the combination of tractor and baler, chances are the cutoff knives are too dull or the rpm is incorrect or your need some suitcase weights or all of these possibilities. Since the plunger is actually slowing down as it passes the feeder throat heading towards Top Dead Center because of the advancing crank angle, the jerking comes on where the plunger has its highest speed (at cutoff). Naturally, a loose hitch, sloppy driveline trunions, loose drive chains and soft tires also contribute, but keeping the parts in shape is a prerequisite. Otherwise its an exquisite pre-wreck.

Keeping the machinery functioning at its rated rpm is the biggest mistake newbees make. That's where all the balancing forces are designed to be minimally needed.

 

[SPYDERLK]

How would cutoff knives affect the plunger motion enuf to feel an effect?
larry

 

[LAWALLSTRACTOR]

I know of a Mahindra customer, (I didn't sell the tractor) who operates a 1960's Massey Fergusen kicker baler, pulls the baler and wagon, with a Mahindra 4110 (33 pto HP) with loaded tires. Seems to work well

 

[rankrank1]

Sounds like this one is harder to drive than the IH37 which does the standard 14X18" bale. I imagine the 37 must have a heavier flywheel because it does not exhibit plunger jerks even when packing rock hard wet bales.
larry

"Plunger jerks" was a poor choice of wording on my part - I was attempting to keep my terminology simple and apparently I over simplified. In short, I did not want the original poster to go out and buy a itty bitty little tractor that was a glorified lawntractor and expect to bale with it. (There are compacts that have some beef in the driveline while some others do not even though the hp numbers may appear identical). Most balers produce a Gyro effect with the plunger oscillations due to the laws of physics. Even if the tractor is not actually shaking the driveline is still stressed to a certain degree. A tractor driveline with some material in the driveline can take this stress where a flimsy driveline may not hold up. In general a smaller plunger size will produce less of a gyro effect as it is less mass changing directions each time (Yes, there are other influencing factors too such as the flywheel counterbalancing, etc.)

Lastly my tractor did not "jerk" and my little tractor did fine with the baler and ran rather smoothly. I am sure that having the FEL attached helped though. Everything was working so smoothly that I end up having my wife drive the baler (she had never baled) while I picked up the dropped bales with the pickup truck/trailer. (Note: When I bought this baler nothing worked on it as it had been sitting outside abandoned in a fence row for a decade. I spent about 3 weekends going through it and teaching myself how everything should work along with reading the manuals. Apparently, I learned well as I did not have a single missed knot).

 

[HarryVanderpool]

We have run our baler for years with our Ford 9N which has done a very fine job.
Here is a picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/DSC00334.jpg

The Ford 9N is 23 HP.

We still use the Ford to mow and rake, but have since purchased a Massey Furguson 1540 that we now bale with. 40 HP.
You just have to understand equipment likle rankrank1 and watch what is going on.
I'm sure that each baler has it's own requirements as well.
Our McCormick 45 is as perfect of a machine as was ever invented.
We baled the entire farm again this year and the only problems were 3 double knotts and 2 failed knotts.
The bales were just shy of 50 lbs.
No! The baler is NOT for sale.

 

[slowzuki]

I can tell you a BX would get destroyed by a normal sized square baler, it may not be right away but you are wearing out an expensive unit for the sake of a little baling!

The rocking of a normal square baler is strong, the old IH we used weighed near 10,000 lb and would be shook by the baler under some conditions. With a loaded wagon on back its obviously much smoother.

My JD336 doesn't rock nearly as hard as the MF224 did before but it can still give a good shaking at the right rpm with no hay being fed into the baler.

 

[WTA]

My tractor gets rocked pretty good and it's more than big enough for the baler. Or for any other haying implement there is. It's nearly 100 hp and is pretty heavy. Even more so with the tires loaded like they are.
I thought that bouncing back and forth was just a fact of life when baling no matter what you are driving.

 

[Soundguy]

With all this talk of bailing.. I may actually try my hand at it this year. I've helped out before.. but never personally owned any of the specific hay equipment.. Guy down the road is selling an old but good looking IH square bailer.

Now I just need to find a good sickle or disc mower and rake!

soundguy