bang bang you're dead

itsmecindi · Oct 4, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

Well if I were reviewing the reports I would be looking more for the same name popping up on different reports rather than the same one showing up in the same handwriting all the time. I know there is the potential someone could mess with the system but give me some more suggestions. I'm all ears. Well not really I think I'm seventy percent water or something but you know what I mean. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Inspector507 · Oct 4, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

10 bully's with 10 different handwriting samples will implicate a "good" kid in a heartbeat /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
They always travel in packs. One bully will never survive alone. Wolves tend to stick together to survive.

Will_C · Oct 4, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

As a Junior High school teacher, I 'll second what Chet has mentioned. The kids in our building never know where I'll (or one of my colleagues) will show up. I must visit the boy's bathroom 8-10 times a day, I buy my lunch in the school cafeteria and often will eat with a group of students in the lunchroom, and we all monitor the hallways between each class. I know many teachers feel that such things are beneath them, but we feel that a kid can't learn well if they are scared.
And gosh, Bird, I am the Varsity football coach, but I am sure it is not like Texas. I just had a player suspended for disrespecting a teacher. When the principal informed me of the suspension, the only thing I said to him was "are you sure it is long enough."
I'm sure not the highest paid teacher /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Remember, I only have a BX /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Will

Mrwurm · Oct 4, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

Cindi,

I was one of the biggest kids in High School so I did'nt get picked on very much. But, I was'nt popular either, so I took my share of teasing.

I witnessed an awful lot of bullying. A few times I was even able to stop it. With two kids in particular that I remember, the harrassment was constant, cruel, and universally applied by both boys and girls.

One boy was teased about the development of his body as viewed in the showers after gym class. The teasing carried from the locker room to the classrooms. The latter, of course, is where the girls picked up on it. Their taunts must have been the cruelest of all. I don't know, but I can't imagine that that kid went on to adulthood unaffected.

The only thing worse than bullying is hazing. But, that's another post for another day.

F350Lawman · Oct 4, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

Oops, guess I better get off the soapbox because I know I'm in the minority on this topic, but personally I'm convinced that organized sports, especially football, is the worst thing that has ever happened to public education in this country.

Your not only in the minority but I think your wrong as well. To smear all of those who play organized sports is wrong. Singling out football players is even worse. Sure some of the bullies are "jocks" just as some are the 'burnouts", "rockers" gweetos" or anyother group of kids who hangout and make a name for themselves in their time period. I suppose in the fifties it was the "greasers".

I went to several high schools in NYC, of varied racial and socio-economic make-ups. There were all kinds of goups formed at these schools and there were bullies and vicitms in most of them.

The vast majority of kids get some level of discipline, teamwork, work ethic, physical fitness and self confidence from playing organized sports. School sports also helps ALL the kids in a school develop some school identity. I just came from a HS game and their were hundreds of kids from grade school to HS age watching the game many wearing the school shirts. Some were obviously not in the 'jock" crowd but they were having fun riding skateboards, bikes, hanging-out or playing pick-up ball on the next field while occasionally checking on the game.

We live in a day where violence in schools is up school and everywhere else when compared to decades ago. We also live in a time when young kids especially boys are sitting at home playing Playstation 2, sittng on AOL instant messaging one another or hanging out at the mall, rather than play sports or even go to he park for a pick-up game. They are increasingly unable to cope with lifes REAL victories and defeats because they never suffer those loses or achieve the minor wins that one does while playing sports. They sit at home in their little videogame/TV world and never learn to deal with one another until they are thrown together at school.

If your kids don't go play organized sports or other organized activities they don't develop social skills. Take a look at our unused parks. Kids can't just go out and play, their outlets ARE organized sports and activites be it at school or through some other manner. We could use more participation in sports, organized by the school or not.

I also think that we are looking at the issue from only one side. Sure bullies are a problem, they always have been They may be worse but who gets a gun when someone teases them??? I keep hearing about how bad some of these bullies are and I am sure they are. They were terrible when I was a kid and that isn't that long ago. I have 2 children, 6 and 12 years old and it's not that much different from when I was young. What skills have these parent passed on to these kids that they respond to (even if it's constant) teasing by shooting down, teachers, students, security guards or anyone else who stands in their way. These kids are building bombs and making suicide pacts and if it weren't for bullies they would be "normal' productive members of society some day? Huh? I think we have some anti-social time-bombs walking among us and while bullies may be the catalyst today, someone or something else will be tomorrow. How'd you like to fire one of these "victims" at work??? Seems like there is a rash of workplace violence as well, maybe the boss is to blame?

I despise bullies as much as the next guy but they have always existed and always will, it's the reaction that's changed. These kids have no tools for dealing with conflict and their parents are asleep at the switch. I also wonder if the new "anti-violence" rules in schools also are counter productive. I remember fighting was always a no-no but if it was a normal fistfight the punishement was fairly light. Usually both guys were brought in to the Deans office and most times came to some sort of truce. Now they get the police involved and the kids are scared to death to defend themselves. Two of my sons friends had aminor fight and it was almost criminalized. Due to tha fact the kids and parents are still upset with one another. While it may sometimes stop the initial fight when it does blowup it is major because the kid has been swallowing abuse for so long. heck with the way the schools react to even a minor fight my younger brother would have needed to bring bail money to school /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif He wasn't a bully but he had achip on his shoulder and was fighting often.

As crazy as it sounds I actually have had to tell my son that it is sometimes OK to fight IF that what he MUST do to defend himself. It's almost like the gun laws "outlaw guns and only oulaws will have guns"' instead it's "outlaw self defense and the bullies will have a field day". My son is not a trouble maker and gets straight A's but if the teachers can't address a situation after he brings it to their attention I support him defending himself. He understands it better be a real clear cut situation and so long as it is we will back him all the way. It has only happened once or twice but by handling the situation right away it didn't get worse.

Organized sports and football to blame I just can't agree.

Bird · Oct 5, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

( To smear all of those who play organized sports is wrong. Singling out football players is even worse. )

Lawman, I know there are not simple answers, and I never intended to imply that all those who play organized sport or all football players are bullies. And yes, I've known bullies who were not on the football team, but they were definitely in the minority. And I never meant to imply that all school board members and all school administrators have their priorities wrong, but from what I've seen of where the money goes, it appears quite obvious that football is a much higher priority than education with many of them.

And as I said, my own grandson is on the football team (usually offensive center), played in a summer baseball league (one of the biggest boys on his team and quite possibly the best batter on his team), but school taxes didn't pay for that summer league. Oh, and he's also a fan of Playstation 2. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif He's also big enough that I doubt he'll be a victim of the bullying, and I don't think he has the personality to ever be the perpetrator, not to mention the fact that he knows what the possible penalties might be if his mother or I ever found out he was such a perpetrator.

( We live in a day where violence in schools is up )

Unfortunately true. I think all the schools in this area now have police officers stationed in the schools while I can't remember ever seeing a police officer even called to the school when I was a kid.

( Sure bullies are a problem, they always have been They may be worse but who gets a gun when someone teases them??? )

I agree. I had polio and went through the early grades of school wearing a special shoe and brace up to my knee, and perhaps because of an odd name, too, I was amazed at how cruel young kids can be. And I've always carried a pocketknife from the time I was 6 years old, I've owned guns ever since I was 10 years old, but I don't think anyone ever even considered using a knife or gun as a weapon.

( As crazy as it sounds I actually have had to tell my son that it is sometimes OK to fight IF that what he MUST do to defend himself. )

Not so crazy to me; my Dad always said the same thing. Perhaps naturally, but my Mother was opposed to me getting into any kind of fights. I was in a few very minor scuffles that were never reported to anyone, but finally when I was 14 one bully insisted on pushing the matter daily until I agreed to meet him in an alley after school a couple of blocks from the school. It was a long and bloody fistfight (nearly all his blood from his nose and mouth), but neither of us would quit or give up until other boys broke up the fight. Mother was frantic, wanted to go to the school to talk to the principal and wanted me to stay home from school the next day. Dad thought it was funny and said to let the boys solve their own problem. And of course, there was no way I was going to not go to school the next day and let that sucker think he'd won. Well, when I got to school he had cleaned up his blood and looked pretty good; I had two black eyes. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Some of the teachers wanted to know what happened, but as far as I know, no one ever told them. The kid I'd fought apologized privately for picking the fight, we got along just fine from then on, and no one ever bullied me again.

( Organized sports and football to blame I just can't agree )

Sorry if I implied that those were the only things to blame because I know they're not. Of course I don't know how it is in all schools, but I have personally seen instances in which the high school football coach was the highest paid staff member on the school district (other than the superintendent) and in which the priority was WINNING (fouls and/or injuring players for the other side is OK as long as you don't get caught); not the kind of social development I favor. And education took a backseat to sports; football players would have passing grades no matter what they did. The rest of the student body had to earn their grades.

And the most irritating of all to me was TAX DOLLARS were concentrated on the school sports programs instead of an education that would help them in the future. And when the schools do that, are they really doing any of the kids a favor? Example: I happen to know what the future brought for two of my high school's football "star" players. One was arrested (by my troops) once for murder (barroom fight with charges later dismissed when the Grand Jury decided it might have been self defense) and he's worked most of his life as a deck hand on a shrimp boat. The other had been, at last count, arrested 7 times for DWI (I made the 7th arrest) and works as a bartender. How did being the teachers' favorites and good football players help them? And yes, I know, maybe the same thing would have happened if they'd never played football.

So, yes, I'm in the minority (and maybe I'm wrong, although I doubt it), and I'll also admit to another possible prejudice because I never played in any of the organized school sports; wanted to, but had to work before and after school, so couldn't stay after school to practice or be at the games in the evening; had to be on my job instead.

cowboydoc · Oct 5, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

First of all I don't think the focus should be on the bullies. I really can't believe everyone has missed the boat on this one. Why do you think a child has become a bully? 99% of the time it's because of the parents. You show me a kid that comes from a loving family where the parents are involved in the DAY to DAY life of that child and actually show them love and attention and you won't see a bully. The reason a person bullies is because they themselves are usually victims.

As far as schools when I grew up I never saw much bullying. Sure kids would get picked on once in awhile but that is going to happen all of your life. What about the overbearing boss, spouse, checkout line lady, etc. We have to learn to deal with life's joys and cruelties. Teach your children to deal with this. Be involved in their lives. Teach them they can trust you and come to you to talk about things. Too many of us are too busy with our lives. We spend too much time on the computer, our jobs, our wants and needs and forget all about the kids.

As far as sports many of the brightest kids are athletes. For other kids it's their only way out. More than one life has been saved from sports. Organized sports is no more the problem in schools than a bully is. Once again it's not the kids building the stadiums it's the adults. I've been one of the "jocks" through high school, college, and the professional level. Most athletes are not jerks, bullies, or anything else but normal kids. Sure there are bad apples, just like there are bad apples in every "group". Again it's the adults that can make all the difference in the world. I have had coaches through the years that were not only great mentors but were the best friends I ever had. I know one of the reasons I am where I am is not only from some great grandparents but from sove very special coaches who helped me out along the way as well. And I've had coaches that were the biggest jerks I've ever met.

As far as schools go if we don't teach kids to stand up and take responsibility for a simple bully in a school then when are they going to stand up? Again it all comes back to what kids are taught. Are we going to let friends, school, sports, etc. be the main focus of a childs life or are you going to make yourself the main focus of that childs life.

The problem with bullies isn't sports, school, or anything else. The problem lies with the adults.

Bird · Oct 5, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

( The problem with bullies isn't sports, school, or anything else. The problem lies with the adults. )

I certainly agree that the major problem lies with the adults, but that includes the parents and other adults as well, including the adults in the school system. And of course there is no one thing, including those adults, that can account for all the problems nor for all the good. I've known really mean, bad criminals who came from good families and I've known some really fine people who came from the very worst of families. I guess there'll always be exceptions to every rule.

When my daughters went from junior high school (now called "middle" school) to high school (3 years apart), each of them brought home a memo saying that we (parents) had to attend an orientation at the high school on a certain date. Of course even if it hadn't indicated it was mandatory, we'd have gone. And each time, the "orientation" was very brief and on a single, emphasized topic, and that was that the high school had one of the best sports "programs" in the state and for the kids to NOT even "try out" for the football, baseball, swimming, or tennis programs unless they were already one of the very best players in that sport before coming to high school. Now again, I know I'm in the minority, but it seems to me that if tax dollars are paying for it, it should be available to all the kids.

They did also mention that they had a drill team/cheerleader program that any of the girls could "try out" for, but only if their parents provided $1,000.00 in advance. And if they didn't make the team, well, you just lost your $1,000.00.

Before the girls went to high school, the school district floated a bond issue; a big one. Some thought the size was too big, but the school board and school administration admitted that it was more than was needed right now, but that the area was growing and more classrooms would be needed in the future and if they did this big bond issue now that would prevent the need for another one in the near future, and the money was specifically earmarked for new classrooms. It passed, and yes, I voted for it.

Then a couple of years later, they decided to build a big new fancy football stadium and a natatorium with that money. Of course that was technically "illegal", so they decided to get around that little problem by building two "classrooms" under the bleachers. They had a public hearing; big crowd. Now the best I could tell the crowd appeared to be pretty evenly split between the supporters of the plan and the opposition. The opposition sat quietly and listened to the speakers supporting the new sports complex, but everytime anyone spoke against it, the "sports fans" yelled, stomped, screamed, and clapped to drown them out (made for nice viewing on the TV news that night). And yes, I attended that meeting, but only to observe.

So, then the opposition filed a lawsuit to stop what was a blatantly illegal plan, but the judge decided that the "majority" (at least the most vocal ones) wanted the new sports facilities, and since they were going to put those two classrooms under the bleachers, it would be legal.

So the school board and administration assured the court, news media, and public that the money was available and school taxes would not have to be increased to pay for it. The very next year, my school taxes went up 25%. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So, yes, there are both good and bad folks in sports, and there are many good points to the various sports programs, but I remain convinced that tax supported sports programs in public schools is the worst thing that has ever happened to the education system in this country.

itsmecindi · Oct 5, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

Yes obviously the focus needs to be on the bullys and why they are bullying. But you have to identify them first. Then they can be helped or dealt with, whatever. Right now the system is so messed up that the good kids who are fighting back are getting the reputations as trouble makers.

Bird · Oct 5, 2003

Re: bang bang you\'re dead

( Right now the system is so messed up that the good kids who are fighting back are getting the reputations as trouble makers. )

My brothers would sure agree with you on that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif They say that was the case when they were in high school, and that's been a long time ago, so I don't know whether that's much of a change or not.