Battery

[RobertN]

Ah, a Gold wing; to have thy face in thy wind! Ya, we ride Harley's, but the most important part is being in the wind/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif regardless of make. It's windy and overcast and sprinkling now and then. Otherwise, I would love to get the bike out for a few minutes.

I did mix you up regarding the trailering, I think with "jeff396".

On the fenders, do you have painted or bare diamond plate? Have you ever added anything to paint, or added traction strips? I stand on my plain fenders now and then to get to the tractor; the plain paint gets slippery...

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>"I stand on my plain fenders now and then to get to the tractor; the plain paint gets slippery... "</font color=blue>

I've come dangerously close to slipping on the painted diamond plate bed when the trailer bed is tilted and covered with rain. I haven't yet done anything about that yet, though some rolled on paint with some fine grain sand mixed in would probably help. Right now I've got 7" of snow on the bed and intend to use the trailer in the morning. After driving on the tilted bed, walking off can be interesting. I may just winch it on tomorrow so I don't have to climb off like that.

As to standing on my new fenders, it would take a rather substantial amount of reinforcement for any trailer fender to support my 6'-8", 285 lb. body so I don't think that will be a concern. (Lots of people have told I'm the only guy they've ever seen make a full dress Aspencade look small). /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[Phred]

Richard,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Called store back to double check "value" of coupon and got different sales guy who is saying that I should NOT use ANY of their batterys (even the 1,000 cca) as they are not made for this type machinery and the vibrations that Brutus will dish out will prematurely wear out the plates inside the battery.

<hr></blockquote>




I don't buy it. I have regular batteries in my diesel 4x4 truck that I use on the farm.
Vibration is far worse than my tractor. Many miles on hard dirt roads at 25 mph.
I have to go in and tighten up the battery mounts and connections from time to time. Any old battery should work in your tractor IMHO.

Fred

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I can't help but think the $65 credit was just another famous Sears scam to overcharge for the tires, and give you a worthless cupon they don't intend to honor.

 

[boustany]

If it has anything to do with electricity, people will tell you anything.
No doubt there is a perfect battery for every specific vehicle, machine, and or application. But, good enough will probably work good enough.
My old Case 580C had 2 6 volt super heavy duty batteries. They didn't hold a charge for very long, and in winter I practically had to recharge before trying to start. I priced the batteries and it worked out to around $250, which struck me as a lot. I checked at a bunch of places for an industrial/diesel 12 volt battery and was told either it won't work, its too dangerous, we don't have it, etc., etc.. This included Sears.
Then I thought: wait a minute, didn't I spend 13 year designing computers? How difficult can this be? I should know a bit more about this than a sales clerk. I need a 12 volt battery with high cranking amperage. Thats it: the battery doesn't 'know' what its cranking. So I went to a Sears and bought an good 12 volt battery with 800 amp cranking that happened to fit my Honda Accord (hey - I wasn't THAT confident). I fit it into the Case using a couple of pieces of 2x4 to fit it into the carrier.
Worked like a charge for the next 3 years and as far as I know it is still working now. Heck - the battery was only warranteed for 5 years anyhow.
The trick is not to tell anybody, not even the battery, what you are going to use it for .....

 

[TOMLESCOEQUIP]

Robert.......Tell the sears guy you have a ford taurus with all the options........even the heated windshield......1999 0r 2000 model year.....the make a battery just for that application.........they should stock lots of them..........its basically a slightly lower profile group 24 battery(top post )and has 850 cca...........its meant to run the million or so power accessories they think you need on your car nowadays........ Have one in my kubota..........it works great...........the first one lasted seven years..........TOM

 

[Richard]

Interestingly enough, I talked to JCB dealer late last week. Turns out that JCB has their OWN battery that is made in England.

Of course, it's the "right one" for the machine and all that sales pitch.. however, 3 things that struck me as interesting that he said..

1. The batteries are received by them DRY and they put the acid in there upon purchase (seems to me as fresh as one can be??)

2. The JCB battery is also used by them (dealer) for most all their other machines (primarily Komatsu). He said the battery weighs a ton as there are more plates inside of it and therefore it has more power than others of lessor internal plates. (hmm...)

3. JCB uses only ONE battery for ALL it's machines. No matter WHAT JCB machine you are running...supposedly "this' battery is what they (factory) put into it..because it's sooooooooooooooo wonderful.

Seems to me that 1,000 cca is 1,000 cca irregardless of other issues? None the less, I DO have to admit that the brand new battery we bought this past summer for the boat doesn't seem up to snuff to turn Brutus over.

So, if JCB battery cost 150, and a big diehard one, costs (guessing) $100, then I'm quibbling over $50 (forgetting I have coupon for 60 off on battery... I'll just put one in wifey's car)

With the battery essentially dying in Brutus this past weekend when it got real cold.. I'm sort of realizing I'll just go by the book and save myself some possible issues.

Richard

 

[skent]

Eight years ago the OE battery in my Ford F150 died. It's a plain old F150, 1989, 5 speed, no air or power options with the 300CI straight six.

A standard group 24 would fit in there nicely and I went to 'Battery Warehouse' to get one. I went in and asked for the Group 24 battery (750 CCA) that was on special for $34.95, the salesman asked what it was for and I said a F150. He said it wouldn't work. For my application I needed the LT (light Truck) battery because of the demands of the trucks electrical system. I asked him why the truck would need a larger capacity battery than my Oldsmobile 98 with all options? He said the trunk has a higher current starter and alternator (not true) and a LT battery is more vibration resistant.

I insisted on the Group 24 battery and he stated that the 36 month warrenty was void due to wrong application. I went ahead and bought the battery, Installed it and guess what. . . . he was right because just last month that battery went dead!

 

[Anonymous Poster]

There seems to be a common thread running thru this posting, "the warranty will be void". Given that most battery warrantys aren't worth the paper they are printed on to begin with, given the way they are prorated, it probably isn't much of a loss.

 

[boustany]

Yep, I guess he was right - the thing only lasted 5 years longer than it was warranteed to. :^)
This sort of thing happens all the time with electrical stuff - some clerk waxing poetic about something they know nothing about. I worked for a few years as mechanic on electrical golf carts. Ocassionally the batteries blew up (it seems the distance between the terminals of a 6 volt battery are a perfect match for a 1/2" spanner), cracked, and so on but of the thousands of batteries we replaced, almost all of them just died from being deep cycled and charged. Basically, you could tell because the final charge current was pretty high and the batteries got hot while charging.
Pretty much, 12 volts is 12 volts. 600 (or whatever) cranking amps is 600 (or whatever) craking amps and so many amp hours is so many amp hours. Other stuff like vibration resistance, etc, etc., may make a difference in extreme circumstances, but is probably pretty much bunk, IMHO. So the best thing to do is lie, and tell them its for your Delta 88, Taurus, or whatever.
By the way, Richard, all the batteries we got were 'dry' when we got them. In fact, I think most of the batteries I bought for my cars had to be filled prior to using, too. Probably they do that because they were safer to transport that way.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

A friend of mine used to say the same thing about wiring. "The electricity doesn't know what color the wire is." /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Richard]

hmm more interesting points, creating more confusion. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I thought that 12 volts was 12 volts, and 600 cca is 600 cca.. but then deep cycle gets into it, "starter battery"... and my understanding just went out the door.

In defense of "new" battery in there now (from boat), it's cca IS LESS than the minimum required. But I figured since it was new, just sitting there, AND the hoe starts VERY quickly, I'd give it a whirl.

Maybe cca is more critical than I'd thought and Brutus drains more than I'd thought.

They DID tell me that if I used it for not rated purpose, the warranty would be void.

interestingly enough.. during the typing of this, I stopped & called Sears. The dude that first told me about this battery (and was very friendly/helpful) no longer works there /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

Hmm..wonder if his departure is because of him being a "can do" kinda guy?

Now, the NEW guy, says, he can't look it up for me today, has to be tomorrow (??). Started to song & dance some about "we never deal in those type"..

When I asked if he had ACCESS to them, or a BOOK to look them up, he hem hawed a bit, and that is when he said he'd have to get back to me.

Hmm..I don't know, but to me, something smells here. Part of me says drop it, go to JCB and get one and just shut up. Another part of me, much more diabolical & ornery, says... take this to the limit, go up chain of command, deal with local manager, store manager, reginal manager, yada yada.. (in the even of their evasiveness).

Currently? my mind is to play "bulldog" with them... this might be fun.

Why can't they just say, "here is your battery, that is "x" dollars, goodbye"?

As I sit here and think more... I think I'll spend the last 30 minutes of my day here, at sears.com trying to see if I can find any info on the diehard batteries... this way, I can maybe be more/as educated as them when I talk to them tomorrow. (oh, by the way, I'm not really expecting them to return my call tomorrow... that's why I got his name /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif }

 

[Richard]

ok, I'm a stinker

I just called store on OTHER side of town, spoke to nice lady (I can schmooze on phone when it serves me /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif }

Anyway..

Diehard
Group 4 "commercial"
1,000 cca
$99.90

Now I wonder, do I be the butthead I can be to my LOCAL store, or just "be cool" about it....


/w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

 

[Argee]

Buy the battery and tell them your going to use it for whatever it's rated purpose is. If it goes bad, take it back. They don't know what you used it in. Most of the time your using any accessories you have the alternator churning out the juice. Turn all your appliances on and disconnect the negative terminal, if they all run then the battery is just recharging from when you started it. Deep cycle means the reserve the battery holds to run things without being charged. Batteries aren't made to much different than they were years ago, just a lot more hype to get you to part with more money. Different models with similar CCA's means a different size battery for a different sized battery box.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

"Deep cycle means the reserve the battery holds to run things without being charged. Batteries aren't made to much different than they were years ago"
How many years ago? When I started playing with batterys, the intercell connectors were lead straps across the top, the cases were rubber, and we routinely had heavy equipment batterys rebuilt. A reasonably skilled battery mechanic could change out a single cell in a battery with a wood chisel, hammer and propane torch in under an hour, and replace the connector post in a cell in half an hour with the same tools.
Then came OSHA
The current generation of batterys are lead calcium with plates that more closely resemble window screnes than they do battery plates, and intercell connectors that self destruct if the battery is operated at capacity for more than a few minutes.
Deep Cycle batterys are designed to deliver a limited current for a lonfg duration, such as trolling motors, or golf carts.
Starting Batterys are designed to start engines.
The conversion from Lead Acid to Lead Calcium has definitely caused vibration to become a factor in battery design.

 

[BigDave]

<font color=blue> Why can't they just say, "here is your battery, that is "x" dollars, goodbye"? </font color=blue>

I buy my batteries at Kmart, I just put it in the cart along with the underwear, deoderant, & Whoppers and proceed straight through checkout lane. No questions. I swap out the battery, and return the old one to the courtesy desk to get my battery deposit back. I haven't had any problems with Kmart batteries; the current one in my truck is almost 4 years old.

 

[DK35vince]

BigDave,
I'm with you.(I keep it simple).
I measure the width and depth of the battery in the machine.
Look at the cranking amps and type of battery posts go to Wal-Mart and get one.

 

[TOMLESCOEQUIP]

I have a friend who insists on using old cars to their final inch of motion....He uses the WALMART batteries in all his DEMO-DERBY cars.....He says they have a model for $39.95 with a one year free replacement....then pro-rated after that.....his system: Walmart gets his 11 month old battery back at the start of derby season .....EVERY year......So far he's on the 4th new battery but on the 1st 39.95......(he just says it's defective and they ALWAYS give him a replacement)........Are we on to something here ????????????.............Tom

 

[skent]

My (very limited) understanding of batteries is the 'normal' car battery has a capacity for high surges.

It has more plates in each cell, the plates are thinner to give more surface area for changing the chemical energy to electrical energy. The plates are made of a spongy lead compound. They are not designed (plate thickness and spacing) for deep cycle use (that would be discharge to less then 50% capacity) on a repeated basis. Doing so causes the plates to become 'clogged' (the tiny nooks and kranies in the spongy lead) and limit future CCA. Two or three TOTAL discharges (leaving lights on will) almost kill convinential auto batteries.

Deep cycle batteries, on the other hand, have thicker plates with a more 'open' spongy design. This allows more room (in the nooks and kranies of the spongy lead) to prevent clogging of the plates. But having thicker plates gives a lower surge capacity (for starting) because you have a smaller number of plates per cell.

There is a combination of the two that is a compromise (less CCA but better deep cycle life) and is referred to as marine starting deep cycle.

Vibration resistant batteries have more plate support material (plastic) inside the battery and thicker plate spacers, which reduce available surge and reserve capacity.



Basically, surface area and number of plates determines surge capacity, Amount of acid determines reserve capacity (amp hours), and design or composition of the lead it's deep cycle life.

Hope that clear as mud.

 

[Gfranklin]

Re: Don\'t call me when...!

No battery advice here but a comment on the cables. Someone touched on this earlier.

I have a very dim view of those bolt-on battery clamps that are way too often present when I am helping someone start their dead battery. As I understand it, and have experienced it, normal corrosion buildup between the copper strands and the bolted on clamp will start to resist the low current charge from the alternator but yet let a high current burst as in starting pass.. for a while. These clamps are a guaranteed dead battery in your near future.

When my friends show up and I spot one of these on their vehicle, I tell them what to expect and that I will help them replace it with a properly bonded cable and clamp right now while it's convienent for both of us. They don't and the point doesn't sink in till later.

Greg