Beating your bounds.

[toddbailey]

I'm curious: Does GPS change the game?

Yes it does, and no it doesn't, I look at GPS as another tool it increases production make some task easier(more cost effective). But GPS has its limitations and you must learn when/where to use or not to use.

 

[ultrarunner]

I must live in an area where surveys are really expensive...

Mom and Dad paid $17,000 for 17 acres back in 1978... they got several estimates for a survey and the least expensive was $2600! The land abuts their home.

The legal descriptions go on for 21 pages because the 17 acres is where 3 plat map book pages come together and the land totals 5 parcels...

The simply solution was to create a totally new map book page... couldn't find anyone willing to take on the liability because there were 81 adjacent property owners, a school and park land...

 

[dodge man]

I'm curious: Does GPS change the game?

No, GPS does not change the game. It is just another tool. Boundaries are controlled by monuments, possession, deeds, land owners actions, surveys and many other things, not GPS.

I think GPS is one of the most misunderstood surveying tools to the general public. I'll sum up a few of my feelings with GPS. Its not good for shorter distances. You can measure a distance of 3' more accurate with a tape measure than with GPS. Its good for longer distances and much more accurate for really long distances, say over a mile. It doesn't work well, if it all in trees. Its expensive, a system costs anywhere between 15k and 50k. There is no list of coordinates for people's property corners. You can't just go out with GPS and by magic find property corners. GIS and Assessors maps may give the impression these coordinates exist, but thats not the case. As modern GPS move forward, coordinates may become more available for property corners. As it sits, in the order of importance, coordinates for property corners carry the absolute least weight for property corners location. Things like natural and artificial monuments carry the most weight.

 

[dodge man]

I must live in an area where surveys are really expensive...

Mom and Dad paid $17,000 for 17 acres back in 1978... they got several estimates for a survey and the least expensive was $2600! The land abuts their home.

The legal descriptions go on for 21 pages because the 17 acres is where 3 plat map book pages come together and the land totals 5 parcels...

The simply solution was to create a totally new map book page... couldn't find anyone willing to take on the liability because there were 81 adjacent property owners, a school and park land...

Surveys can be very costly. I've given quotes for surveys that cost more than the land was worth. It also varies by region. If this is in California, they have a lot of requirements that can drive up the cost. I've performed two surveys for relatives where they helped me. There reaction after the job was done was always "this was a lot more work than I was expecting".

 

[JRobyn]

I WISH I could mark my "corners"! My legal description is about 150 "calls" of bearing and distance, some of which include physical markers (to the double-trunk white oak tree). But the reason there are so many calls and "corners" is that the property layout follows the natural topography. So my boundaries are actually generally something like "along the creek at the bottom of the hollow". Maybe hard to know EXACTLY where they are, but close enough for my purposes since I never expect to construct anything even remotely close to them. Doubt any neighbors would either.

- Jay

 

[dodge man]

I WISH I could mark my "corners"! My legal description is about 150 "calls" of bearing and distance, some of which include physical markers (to the double-trunk white oak tree). But the reason there are so many calls and "corners" is that the property layout follows the natural topography. So my boundaries are actually generally something like "along the creek at the bottom of the hollow". Maybe hard to know EXACTLY where they are, but close enough for my purposes since I never expect to construct anything even remotely close to them. Doubt any neighbors would either.

- Jay

A call to a tree is not unusual, but has its limitations since the tree can die. A call to a creek or ravine is actually good. Its not very exact, but its something you can always find.

Surveying in the eastern part of the U.S. is often different than the western part. Most of the eastern part of the country is whats called Metes and Bounds. This is what you describe in your deed with a 150 calls. The western part of the country is on PLSS or Public Land Survey System. Its where the ground is layed out in 1 sqaure mile sections. Illinois was one of the first states that had this happen in. Indiana and Ohio were earlier, but they were still working on the system at the time.

 

[MarkV]

Dodge Man, thanks for starting this thread. I've already learned a few things.

Adverse Possession is brought up all the time and I think way over played. I know it is more a legal question than a survey question but they do inter mix. Have you ever seen any recent cases where someone claimed adverse possession a won? I believe successful claims are much rarer than many on the forum seem to think.

MarkV

 

[edlegault]

I have a question or two for the surveyors.

Background: (1.) I am looking at properties (10-50 acres) in Western Washington state. Some of them are heavily forested with basically overgrown Christmas trees (approx. 20 - 40 years old). There is no way in the world a surveyor can use a transit to shoot through the trees and brush. I am not sure GPS can get a clear view of the sky. The property owners that are selling these type of properties have typically "had them surveyed" but all I see are orange plastic flags hanging on the tree brances and/or on wooden stakes in the ground.

(2.) I am also looking at some properties that have been mostly clear cut (pretty much nice and open ground). These I can understand the surveyor could have had an easy time surveying the 10-40 acre "lots". But again all I see is orange flags tied to wooden stakes or tree branches supposedly marking the corners.

So, I understand there should be metal pins in the ground at the corners corresponding to the recorded legal description. Is that a standard? How are they found in the ground? Metal detector? What if a metal detector finds a piece of other buried junk instead of the "pin"? Is the "pin" just a piece of rebar or is something special with a surveyor's mark on it?

-- What keeps someone from moving the orange flags attached to the wooden stakes? And how does a good survey happen when the forest and brush is so thick that you cannot hardly walk through it, never-the-less look or sight a transit through it?

 

[dodge man]

Dodge Man, thanks for starting this thread. I've already learned a few things.

Adverse Possession is brought up all the time and I think way over played. I know it is more a legal question than a survey question but they do inter mix. Have you ever seen any recent cases where someone claimed adverse possession a won? I believe successful claims are much rarer than many on the forum seem to think.

MarkV

They are very rare. Sometimes they get used in court cases, but its often where a lawyer throws everthing at the wall in the hope something sticks.

I will briefly touch on a case where someone won adverse possesion. I believe it was in Colorado but not sure. The guy had a vacant lot with house on one side. This was a high dollar lot also in a upscale subdivision. The people that lived in the house claimed adverse possesion over part of the lot for what amounted to foot traffic over it. They won. They won enough of the lot to make the remainder unbuildable since its now to small. The bad part is the people that won are both lawyers. In my opinion this was a travesty of the law and shouldn't have happened. In this case, the state law needs changed to make this more difficult to happen.

 

[dodge man]

I have a question or two for the surveyors.

Background: (1.) I am looking at properties (10-50 acres) in Western Washington state. Some of them are heavily forested with basically overgrown Christmas trees (approx. 20 - 40 years old). There is no way in the world a surveyor can use a transit to shoot through the trees and brush. I am not sure GPS can get a clear view of the sky. The property owners that are selling these type of properties have typically "had them surveyed" but all I see are orange plastic flags hanging on the tree brances and/or on wooden stakes in the ground.

(2.) I am also looking at some properties that have been mostly clear cut (pretty much nice and open ground). These I can understand the surveyor could have had an easy time surveying the 10-40 acre "lots". But again all I see is orange flags tied to wooden stakes or tree branches supposedly marking the corners.

So, I understand there should be metal pins in the ground at the corners corresponding to the recorded legal description. Is that a standard? How are they found in the ground? Metal detector? What if a metal detector finds a piece of other buried junk instead of the "pin"? Is the "pin" just a piece of rebar or is something special with a surveyor's mark on it?

-- What keeps someone from moving the orange flags attached to the wooden stakes? And how does a good survey happen when the forest and brush is so thick that you cannot hardly walk through it, never-the-less look or sight a transit through it?

I think I will change the name of this thread to "Ask the surveyor a question".

1. I'm not licensed in your state but I'll make my best guess. I'll just say I haven't seen property that I can't survey because the brush it too thick. Its just a matter of how much it costs. In some areas, its common to "flag" the line. That MIGHT be what you are seeing with the flags in the trees. If I were buying the ground, I would want the corners shown to me.

2. The corners are usually marked with iron pins, rebars are common as are metal pipes. Some states require the corners be capped. This often is a plastic cap that has the surveyors license number on it. How do we know if its a piece of junk or a propety corner? Thats why we make the big bucks If it fits the calls in the deed, that how I usually decide, but its not always black and white. Yes, we use metal detectors to find pins, and a tile probe to find stones.

 

[mjw357]

I have a question or two for the surveyors.

Background: (1.) I am looking at properties (10-50 acres) in Western Washington state. Some of them are heavily forested with basically overgrown Christmas trees (approx. 20 - 40 years old). There is no way in the world a surveyor can use a transit to shoot through the trees and brush. I am not sure GPS can get a clear view of the sky. The property owners that are selling these type of properties have typically "had them surveyed" but all I see are orange plastic flags hanging on the tree brances and/or on wooden stakes in the ground.

Could just be a "paper survey', where they just draw up the boundary of the parent tract and create the smaller lots inside it. Flagging and wooden stakes placed roughly as best guess. May or may not be legal in your state/county.

(2.) I am also looking at some properties that have been mostly clear cut (pretty much nice and open ground). These I can understand the surveyor could have had an easy time surveying the 10-40 acre "lots". But again all I see is orange flags tied to wooden stakes or tree branches supposedly marking the corners.

See above. These stakes may also be just marking the rough proposed location for the lot. The idea being, get buyers for the lots first, get some down payments, then use that money to get a proper survey or plat done.

So, I understand there should be metal pins in the ground at the corners corresponding to the recorded legal description. Is that a standard? How are they found in the ground? Metal detector? What if a metal detector finds a piece of other buried junk instead of the "pin"? Is the "pin" just a piece of rebar or is something special with a surveyor's mark on it?

In Ohio, has to be 1/2" diameter X 30" steel rod (minimum) with some sort of ID cap, or other permanent monument. Again, laws may differ in your state.

-- What keeps someone from moving the orange flags attached to the wooden stakes? And how does a good survey happen when the forest and brush is so thick that you cannot hardly walk through it, never-the-less look or sight a transit through it?

Nothing keeps them from moving. And it takes lots and lots of setups, cutting and time to do a survey in thick brush.

 

[toddbailey]

I have a question or two for the surveyors.
And how does a good survey happen when the forest and brush is so thick that you cannot hardly walk through it, never-the-less look or sight a transit through it?

You use a axe, machete, chainsaw to "cut line" to clear your line of sight!

 

[edlegault]

Sounds like some land sellers may well be letting the buyers do there own survey to determine actual corners and lines. I guess that is kinda ok if you build roads and buildings in the middle and never near the boundaries....

 

[scgargoyle]

I can't imagine buying any piece of property without a survey. Every place I've ever lived, we had a survey done prior to closing. In the case of our acreage in SC, I actually walked the perimeter and spotted the pins myself, just to be sure.

Knowing your property lines is important. While my septic system was being installed, I was working on my Junior Surveyor Badge (j/k) and clear-cutting the property line. I was discussing where the leaching field would go with the contractor, and he planned to go about 30' past the pink flagging I had just put up! He was paying no attention to the property lines; hadn't even seen a plat map. I'm sure it would have been MY problem had he put the leaching field on the neighbor's property. I plan to keep a path open for periodic inspection of my boundaries.

 

[phiferpharm]

I am having trouble envisioning this. Is this road across your property, and his only access to his property to a public road? If so, he has an easement by prescription, no need to do anything.

Best I can explain it is that the easement or access road to my property should be on the other side of my present fence line. He has access to his property from another access road. I drew a very rudimental drawing that may kinda show what I mean.

 

[phiferpharm]

That makes sense to me. Also record that document in the courthouse in land records so it gives "public notice" on what is going on with the boundaries. As far as noting it on a survey, thats up to you. I'm not sure how much it would cost you. If its fairly inexpensive, I'd say yes.

Thanks for your kind advice, It won't be that costly I don't think

 

[Oldstuff]

DodgeMan- I have a question about a comment you made in one of the above post. You said and I did a cut and paste-

"You can't just go out with GPS and by magic find property corners. GIS and Assessors maps may give the impression these coordinates exist, but thats not the case.

In my case I am just across the Mississippi River from you in northeast Missouri. I have 80 acres and have a general deed and the abstract that goes all the way back to when the Federal government owned it and turned it over to the state and then all the owners since- every time it was sold. My legal description is one that says " the southwest quarter and the southeast quarter of the southwest quarter of section 28". My question is that it seems that I should be able to obtain the coordinates on this parcel and use them to verify the accuracy of where we all think the corners are. Am I correct and how would I get that info.

By the way there is no arguments as to where they are now marked. We are all satisfied. Thanks for you great information.

Oldstuff

 

[rsewill]

dodge man, thanks for your willingness to answer questions!

 

[mjw357]

My legal description is one that says " the southwest quarter and the southeast quarter of the southwest quarter of section 28". My question is that it seems that I should be able to obtain the coordinates on this parcel and use them to verify the accuracy of where we all think the corners are. Am I correct and how would I get that info.

Contact the County Engineers office where you live, see if they have original land surveys (1800's) or records of section corners. These section corners have to be found or re-established (big $$ if done by private surveyor, County Engineer may do it if requested). Then the coordinates can be established. Also keep in mind a surveyor is probably going to give you coordinates in a state plane coordinate sytem specific to the part of the state you live in, which you wont get with a $100 Garmin. The coordinates everyone can work with is a latitude/longitude. And the accuracy of a survey grade GPS unit is sub-centimeter, where the consumer grade receivers are generally 10-200 feet.

 

[dodge man]

DodgeMan- I have a question about a comment you made in one of the above post. You said and I did a cut and paste-

"You can't just go out with GPS and by magic find property corners. GIS and Assessors maps may give the impression these coordinates exist, but thats not the case.

In my case I am just across the Mississippi River from you in northeast Missouri. I have 80 acres and have a general deed and the abstract that goes all the way back to when the Federal government owned it and turned it over to the state and then all the owners since- every time it was sold. My legal description is one that says " the southwest quarter and the southeast quarter of the southwest quarter of section 28". My question is that it seems that I should be able to obtain the coordinates on this parcel and use them to verify the accuracy of where we all think the corners are. Am I correct and how would I get that info.

By the way there is no arguments as to where they are now marked. We are all satisfied. Thanks for you great information.

Oldstuff

The thing is, there is probably not a "set of coordinates" for your corners. Getting state plane coordinates or a lat and long for your corners is a fairly recent thing. The theory has been around for years, but it hasn't been practial to do it until GPS came about in the last few years. If I use GPS for a survey, then I have these coordinates for the property, but I would guess that in your area 99% of the properties don't have any kind of coordintes.

The reason I bring up assesors maps and GIS systems for coordinates is they will often give you coordinates for boundaries. In almost all cases this is just done on paper. They didn't actually locate your property corners with GPS, obtain coordiantes, and enter it in the sytsem, they just drew the lines for the property as best the could looking at the aerial photos. Also, not all counties have GIS systems, but its getting more common in my area.

If you and your adjoiners all know where the corners are and agree to them, thats the best situation you can have. If your area is like mine, most property is fenced and the corners are often pretty clear.