Bigger HST machines.

[oldnslo]

LD1,
I suspect that part of the limitation on higher HP HST transmissions is the potential for losing ground speed in ranges and or requiring more gear ranges to obtain ground speed. Hydraulic motors have limit on what speed they can run so smaller displacements provide greater operating range. I am not sure what displacement motor your current tractor has but as an example a 28 cc motor can operate up to 6,000 RPM while a 56 cc can only operate up to 5,000 RPM. The design engineers also have to consider gear tip speed to ensure the gears keep lubricated, bearing loads speeds, charge pump flow, etc.

No question the there are HST units capable of powering 100 HP tractors but there is a whole bunch of other factors behind the scenes that also have to be considered.

 

[blackvette]

In my opinion, its the long term viability…..all HST machines will eventually fail, and geared tractors will in all likelihood still have a good transmission, when they are rusted out and blown up……hst machines are rarely used when it is absolutely a necessity that that tractor function, in all conditions…..
With big wheel loaders, the trade off is worth it, but thats for a purpose built loader, not a utility tractor .

 

[auxhyd]

Cost, plain and simple. It is already done on wheel loaders some of the newer models have fancy hybrid geared hydraulic drives but they're more expensive machines and they benefit greatly from the quick forward / reverse and the hydraulic braking since they often do it all day long.

Tractors on the other hand are less specialized, intended to work well (but not necessarily great...) for a wide variety of uses, especially in the smaller sizes.

 

[4570Man]

Are you mowing with the loader on or off? Also what about a suspension seat upgrade if you don’t have one already?

 

[LD1]

Are you mowing with the loader on or off? Also what about a suspension seat upgrade if you don’t have one already?

Loader is always off when mowing. No I havent upgraded the seat yet. But if it's too rough for me to keep but in seat it's too rough/hard on tractor. Don't wanna snap an axle or bust a spindle.

I would like to upgrade the seat....I already put a nice grammar on my ZTR. Just waiting on my contact that works on forklifts to hook me up again.

 

[allenr]

Not sure I agree that there is no demand.

20+ years ago the only HST were B-sized and 2000 series Deere sized machines.

Then they upped it to include L and 3000 sized machines.

Then it went to Mx/4000 sized machines.

Just wondering when the next step is. HST is proven technology now....it certainly can't be a physical limitation. Heck....10000 pound 100hp skid loaders are HST.


The "need" for HST is for infinite speed and darn dear instant direction change without levers or buttons. No gears to shift to find the right speed. Not even sure why that is in the realm of discussion as to "why". There is nothing that can hold a candle to HST for what I do. There is no other option where I can go 8mph in thin areas...and slow down to 1-2 mph if I need to without changing gears or flipping levers. Just simply lift off the go pedal. It's as natural as driving a car with an accelerator pedal.

I too would like a larger HST. We have an IH 74 Hydro on our 1970's Chisholm Ryder grape harvester. The transmission still works beautifully and would not consider anything else for this application. However, despite having an engine rebuild some years ago the engine still burns oil, leaks oil and is smoky.
Something about 70-80hp with 540E would be ideal.
I suspect in time CVT might come down to this level and have less power loss but I'm not sure I want the complexity, electronics and probable cab when an old school HST can be so reliable.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I too would like a larger HST. We have an IH 74 Hydro on our 1970's Chisholm Ryder grape harvester. The transmission still works beautifully and would not consider anything else for this application. However, despite having an engine rebuild some years ago the engine still burns oil, leaks oil and is smoky.
Something about 70-80hp with 540E would be ideal.
I suspect in time CVT might come down to this level and have less power loss but I'm not sure I want the complexity, electronics and probable cab when an old school HST can be so reliable.

Have you considered and engine swap? Yes it would be a lot of work but I'm thinking a little cummins in there would be sweet.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I could go an inch bigger at the very max. So not really worthwhile even if I could match ratios. Rear fenders, loader brackets, etc get in the way. It's already pretty close.

I've been thinking about this for a few days. If you can't go larger you can still go wider. On my F935 mower I swapped out the 23x8.50x12 tires for a set of 24x12x12. (I just had the rims made wider) I just run a little bit lower air pressure because of the wider tire but what a difference in the ride in the rough areas of my lawn.

 

[4570Man]

Loader is always off when mowing. No I havent upgraded the seat yet. But if it's too rough for me to keep but in seat it's too rough/hard on tractor. Don't wanna snap an axle or bust a spindle.

I would like to upgrade the seat....I already put a nice grammar on my ZTR. Just waiting on my contact that works on forklifts to hook me up again.

The loader makes a lot of difference in ride and it’s surprising how many people won’t take it off.

 

[LD1]

The loader makes a lot of difference in ride and it’s surprising how many people won’t take it off.

Yes, huge difference in ride. Some of the blowouts I have hit if I had the loader on I'd expect a snapped front axle with the added weight.

And it's cumbersome mowing in/round tight areas, adds another ton to trailer around for no real purpose.

Takes 5 min to drop loader. There is no reason at all to leave it on IMO. The only time I do is if someone ALSO wants some loader work done.....or pays to have me shove trees up along fence lines before mowing

 

[pmsmechanic]

If I need a loader at a job I'll bring it along. If I'm done with it at the job I'll most times take it off. It's about a minute to remove and maybe 1.5 minutes to install. With those kind of r&r times it doesn't pay to leave it on.

 

[Rally guy]

Maybe I am an oddball and the only one In The world that would actually buy a 5000-series....or M-sized Kubota with a HST?

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea of trying to plow or plant ground with a 70hp HST is better.

But I imagine there was once a time not long ago that some of you same folks thought there would never be a market for a HST 4000-series Deere or MX/Large grandL either.

But as farms keep getting bigger....and farmers are considering 100hp and smaller tractors their "utility" tractors and not their "real" tractors anymore....I can see the merits of having 80-90hp HST machines. Because those tractors and what farmers around here use for just general purpose stuff. Loading and unloading round bails or seed boxes, pulling seed hoppers, plowing snow and grading their driveways, shoving dead trees back up in fence lines, mowing waterways, towing a header cart, etc etc. All things that a HST would excel at and not be the "inefficient power robbing" machine that some claim

Hello I am new here, my first post I guess. I am from Canada and for my part I could also use a cat 2 70-80 hp tractor. I also believe alot of people would use it here for snow removal. While blowing snow optimal pto speed with modulating speed is king!

Where I blow snow the yard is big and I can only throw snow in one direction. That mixt with the fact that we get heavy snowfalls from November to April and those snowfalls are from 6 to 24 inch. That means that often I will either start from one end blowing one foot and end up with 10 plus feet of pack snow on the other side or push snow with a snow pusher or have 4 to 6 feet high of even denser snow to blow. With these low grip high torque demande condition a gear transmission is a bog disadvantage compare to hydro as condition will require max rpm with alot of varying speed.

 

[sd455dan]

Hello I am new here, my first post I guess. I am from Canada and for my part I could also use a cat 2 70-80 hp tractor. I also believe alot of people would use it here for snow removal. While blowing snow optimal pto speed with modulating speed is king!

Where I blow snow the yard is big and I can only throw snow in one direction. That mixt with the fact that we get heavy snowfalls from November to April and those snowfalls are from 6 to 24 inch. That means that often I will either start from one end blowing one foot and end up with 10 plus feet of pack snow on the other side or push snow with a snow pusher or have 4 to 6 feet high of even denser snow to blow. With these low grip high torque demande condition a gear transmission is a bog disadvantage compare to hydro as condition will require max rpm with alot of varying speed.

Versatile should start building and selling a New version of the 150-160 or the New Holland 9030 Bi Di 100HP model

Snow Slayers

 

[arrow]

Yes, huge difference in ride. Some of the blowouts I have hit if I had the loader on I'd expect a snapped front axle with the added weight.

And it's cumbersome mowing in/round tight areas, adds another ton to trailer around for no real purpose.

Takes 5 min to drop loader. There is no reason at all to leave it on IMO. The only time I do is if someone ALSO wants some loader work done.....or pays to have me shove trees up along fence lines before mowing

I received some info from Mahindra in Penn.
They have no plans to make the 2070 in hst.
They have not stated to me as yet if they would send an ordered 2660, with the larger tire set on the 2070.
My dealer thinks they wouldn't but corporate has not given me a definitive answer.

They also stated that the front ags placed on the 2070, are of course taller but also narrower than the 16.5's placed on the 2660 hst because of increased sectional width on the smaller tire.

Finally, the nomenclature stating that the 2660 pst could be had with the larger 2070 tires was a mis-print.
That tire was never placed on the 2660pst from the factory.
Their newer website clarifies what tire goes where and the 2660 pst is not listed as taking the larger 2070 tires any longer.

A new tractor ordered today will take 5 months to get.

 

[LD1]

I received some info from Mahindra in Penn.
They have no plans to make the 2070 in hst.
They have not stated to me as yet if they would send an ordered 2660, with the larger tire set on the 2070.
My dealer thinks they wouldn't but corporate has not given me a definitive answer.

They also stated that the front ags placed on the 2070, are of course taller but also narrower than the 16.5's placed on the 2660 hst because of increased sectional width on the smaller tire.

Finally, the nomenclature stating that the 2660 pst could be had with the larger 2070 tires was a mis-print.
That tire was never placed on the 2660pst from the factory.
Their newer website clarifies what tire goes where and the 2660 pst is not listed as taking the larger 2070 tires any longer.

A new tractor ordered today will take 5 months to get.

Bummer.

Makes sense it was a misprint. It was kinda odd the SAME tractor (2660) had different tires just because of a different trans.

 

[allenr]

Have you considered and engine swap? Yes it would be a lot of work but I'm thinking a little cummins in there would be sweet.

Yes, have considered it briefly, maybe that's the way we'll have to go eventually.
I think it would well beyond our abilities to do the job.
I was kind of keen to get a nice one piece hinging bonnet too, not the rusting bits and pieces bonnet that came with 74's and a new bonnet over the existing powerplant would never meet up with the dashboard.
Maybe I'll have a look what I can learn on Youtube about tractor engine swaps!

 

[pmsmechanic]

Yes, have considered it briefly, maybe that's the way we'll have to go eventually.
I think it would well beyond our abilities to do the job.
I was kind of keen to get a nice one piece hinging bonnet too, not the rusting bits and pieces bonnet that came with 74's and a new bonnet over the existing powerplant would never meet up with the dashboard.
Maybe I'll have a look what I can learn on Youtube about tractor engine swaps!

I know there are a few company's that make adapters for the B series cummins. Both the 4 and 6 cylinder versions use the same adapters and maybe someone has already made something that will work or can be made to work for a 74 series IHC.

I had a bell housing made for 6.2 liter diesel Ford engine and a 5 speed New Venture transmission. It replaced the 361 Ford in a New Holland bale wagon. It really wasn't that hard of a job.

 

[allenr]

I know there are a few company's that make adapters for the B series cummins. Both the 4 and 6 cylinder versions use the same adapters and maybe someone has already made something that will work or can be made to work for a 74 series IHC.

I had a bell housing made for 6.2 liter diesel Ford engine and a 5 speed New Venture transmission. It replaced the 361 Ford in a New Holland bale wagon. It really wasn't that hard of a job.

Thanks for your thoughts PMS.
Yes, I think we can find or make an adaptor.
More unsure about getting the independent PTO power through to the trans but maybe the flywheel has all we'll need. Google searches haven't turned up much on that issue.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Thanks for your thoughts PMS.
Yes, I think we can find or make an adaptor.
More unsure about getting the independent PTO power through to the trans but maybe the flywheel has all we'll need. Google searches haven't turned up much on that issue.

Most independent pto's that I have seen are either driven off of the flywheel or more commonly off of the pressure plate. The clutch plate will have the drive splines for the transmission and the pressure plate will have splines on it for the pto drive shaft. It will most likely be a hollow shaft set up where one shaft is nested inside the other. In your case with the hydrostatic transmission it will most likely work a bit differently. There's probably is no need for a double shaft set up. If you look up the parts diagrams for your model of tractor on the CaseIH parts website it will show how it all fits together. Google "caseih parts".