Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside

   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside
  • Thread Starter
#131  
Tier 3, Tier 4, etc. use different methods, controls, to effect end results for emissions standards for diesel engines. Tier 3 not as much as interim Tier 4, and Tier 4 final requirements. Diesel injector nozzles are very fine tuned at the factory before release to the consumer. Most manufacturers build them in clean rooms that are extremely dust/particulate free.
When fuel that has larger than normal particles of diesel try to pass through the injector it can jam the injector, cause pee like spray patterns or worse. This results in unburned fuel and less than ideal combustion. This results in smoking, poor fuel economy, etc.
Winterized or 'cut' diesel fuel in the Northeast states usually has Kero added to make it flow better, and to keep it from freezing in the diesel filters that may have trapped water in them from extracting same from the tank's condensation.
We used to use Red Line Diesel fuel catalyst for ALL our diesel foreign autos when I had my shop. Often the cars would come to the shop from having been on the mountain(s) overnight and they would be dead. Drained batteries, block heaters that couldn't overcome the effects of frozen fuel, etc. We'd take them into my shop and raise them on the lift and drain the oil and filter and fuel filter and fill the fuel tank with 'cut' diesel and Red Line. After several hours thawing out we'd send them on their way, with a big bill, and instructions on how to survive in the mountains of Vermont. These were mostly vacationers or tourists, but they all learned it takes more than a Mercedes to get through the winter here.
I get the particle size thing with the injector. I am just wondering why it diminished greatly as temps rose? That is why i was looking at the cetane level. Cetane is the most important thing on a cold start/ cold temps if I am reading it right? Again, not trying to be a Pia. Just trying to understand the whole process. I assume your reference to particle size is in the molecular level of the fuel not stuff in the fuel. It always pumped through a 10 micron/ water block filter plus the onboard tractor filter. Not sure what micron rating is for the tractor filter. Thanks
 
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   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside
  • Thread Starter
#132  
Just did a little more reading in the service manual. Kioti states the micron level of the onboard fuel filter at 90 microns. That is quite large. Also noticed the injection pressure operates quite low at about 2200 psi. Tried finding info on emmissions control for the engine and it appears there are none. Not sure what the diff is between this engine tier3 and the older tier engines as it relates to fuel.
 
   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside #133  
IMO 2200 psi is about normal (or even on the high side) for a mechanical IP system.

For reference. my turbo OM617 Mercedes was 135-143 bar (1960-2075 psi) for the non-turbo version it's 115-125 bar (1668-1813 psi). These engines use the exact same injector shimmed to different pop pressures.

On the other hand, the new common rail auto systems supply high (like 15,000 psi and up) pressure to all injectors when the engine is running and the injectors are operated electrically.

I just did some looking and Tier 4 Kioti engines are common rail designs with catalyst/oxidizer exhaust systems. These require ULSD DF2, preferably winterized (e.g.additives) Diesel vs winter (blended with DF1)Diesel. I'm glad I have a Tier 3 engine.
 
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   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside
  • Thread Starter
#134  
IMO 2200 psi is about normal (or even on the high side) for a mechanical IP system.

For reference. my turbo OM617 Mercedes was 135-143 bar (1960-2075 psi) for the non-turbo version it's 115-125 bar (1668-1813 psi). These engines use the exact same injector shimmed to different pop pressures.

On the other hand, the new common rail auto systems supply high (like 15,000 psi and up) pressure to all injectors when the engine is running and the injectors are operated electrically.

I just did some looking and Tier 4 Kioti engines are common rail designs with catalyst/oxidizer exhaust systems. These require ULSD DF2, preferably winterized (e.g.additives) Diesel vs winter (blended with DF1)Diesel. I'm glad I have a Tier 3 engine.

This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.
 
   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside #135  
Makes you wonder if a big difference in the higher tiers is the ability to survive with lower lube in the fuel. If so, then higher sulfur wouldn't hurt the newer engines as much as ULSD would hurt an older engine.
 
   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside #136  
This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.

I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.
 
   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside #137  
This whole post started over the blue smoke when cold (unburnt diesel). It turned out it was the fuel. High sulphur Hho #2 to be exact. I did not do this on purpose.i assumed it was the same as pump diesel like it was in my old state where I lived. It turned out in NH they allow up to 3000 ppm of sulphur. The smoke never existed when a warm start or warm air temp occured. It always ran great except for the stink. I am trying to determine what if any unseen problems it may have caused. Being that i have a mechanical ip engine with no emmission control and always filtered it through a water block 10 micron filter. No one has given me an explanation other than speculation. Kioti also states diesel only. Not one mention of ulsd anywhere. Always used rotella 5/40 and changed the oil at 100 hrs . I also used Pri d on evey fill up.

I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.
 
   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside
  • Thread Starter
#138  
I would speculate that Kioti does not mention ulsd because it has been around here in the US for several years and the only way you can buy diesel.[/QUOT

Does anyone here have a tier4? Does Kioti state ULSD on them?

Found this as to how they tested for tier 1 to 3.

Certification Fuels. Fuels with sulfur levels no greater than 0.2 wt% (2,000 ppm) were used for certification testing of Tier 1-3 engines. From 2011, all Tier 4 engines are tested using fuels of 7-15 ppm sulfur content. The transition from the 2000 ppm S specification to the 7-15 ppm specification took place in the 2006-2010 period (see Certification Diesel Fuel).

A change from measuring total hydrocarbons to nonmethane hydrocarbons (NMHC) has been introduced in the 1998 rule. Since there is no standardized EPA method for measuring methane in diesel engine exhaust, manufacturers can either use their own procedures to analyze nonmethane hydrocarbons or measure total hydrocarbons and subtract 2% from the measured hydrocarbon mass to correct for methane

So it appears they used HSD to conduct the testing early on.
Tier 4 is phased in from 2008 to 2015 for non road diesel. This requires ULSD.
Good to be TIER 3 WITH NO EMMISSION CONTROLS. Again, I know 2007 forward is suppose to use ULSD. However, it appears the engine can run the hsd with no ill effects as long it is a basic engine like my KIOTI with no emmission controls.
Now, after saying all that and keepng this thread alive. I am going back to ulsd simply because it smells better.
 
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   / Blue smoke on cold start/cold outside #139  
I had posted last year that my DK50 se was blowing lots of blue smoke on startup. Sent to dealer under warranty check and they attributed it to bad fuel. I received a $170 bill for that. Now that it is cold outside I started my tractor and it it blows tons of blue smoke for about 30 sec. It blows and blows until I raise the idle and then it starts to clear up and run smoother, It sound like an engine misfire when it is doing this. I did check all the glow plugs for function and they are good. I even swapped the fuel with no change. Is this a normal cold start for a Kioti? I have around 240 hrs on a 2014 model. I tried uploading a video and it is too big. I really do not want to go back to dealer and get another bill. Ran fine all summer with no smoke at all. It sucks because my MF before this never smoked on startup. I have to leave the barn until it clears so I can breathe. Any idea if I can upload the video? Zip file says 25mb
My brand new L2502 runs bad and smokes really bad for about 3 minutes when starting it at 0 degrees c or 32 f. I start it then run away.
 

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