Board Fence Installation

/ Board Fence Installation #1  

budman72

Silver Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2002
Messages
107
Location
Verona KY
Tractor
John Deere 4200 mfwd
For the past couple of weeks I've been tearing out 600' of old wire fence complete with grape vines, trees, poison ivy, etc. I'm about to start putting in a four board fence, since I live in Kentucky I need to put one up like on the Kentucky Quarter!

Any instruction/tips on installation would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Bud
 
/ Board Fence Installation #2  
4 Board fence - wow, fancy, way way past we poor cousins in South Carolina. OK, treated (outdoor, ground contact) wood is essential - the higher the number (CCA or whatever) the better (I used marine-grade wood - for salt water - don't ever want to do the fence again), 4X4" posts (4X6" or 6X6" if you're really trying to impress the neighbors), 2X4" stringers (2X6" look better, and last longer), double dipped galvanized nails, Quikcrete for each hole (at 1/2 what they recommend - overkill, but your posts won't tilt, etc), a post-hole digger (at least 1 foot depth for every 3 feet in above ground post height - no way it'll move), and spray (pressure sprayer) or brush on (hope you're patient) stain/preservative (see Consumer Reports) to keep UV damage, water and such at bay. The distance between poles is personal preference, but the longer you go, the wider the stringers better be (a 4X4" much past 8 feet is going to warp with age - heck, everything warps, but a long 4X4" will be real obvious). As to the stuff growing around the posts - Round Up. Good luck.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #3  
Im about to start on a big fence project and I found a cheap way to build a fence like that. There is a mill near here that will custom cut wood cheap. I can get 9' 1 by 6s for a dollar each. I plan to use treated lawn timbers as posts. They seem to be a perfect choice because they are flat on two sides and are treated for ground contact. They only cost about $2.75 at Wal-Mart, so they are much cheaper than 4 by 4s. I was advised to put a short piece of the 1 by 6s as a vertical brace on the other rails about 1/2 way between each post to keep the rails from twisting as they dry. I plan to paint/stain them immediately to slow the drying of the wood which greatly helps with any twisting.

Each 8' section will have one post, and 3 rails for a cost of $5.75....or 72 cents a foot. Plus the cost of the paint/stain.

Jon
 
/ Board Fence Installation #4  
I'm wondering how many years you expect out of your fence?

Usually these treated ground timbers are not good as posts, and don't last long. Yes, in name only, they are 'treated'. But the treatment retention in the wood is not there. Most of these small size timbers are all heartwood, and heartwood does not retain treatment well. Some natural resistance to decay occurs in the heartwood of most species of wood, but it is not as good as treated sapwood (sapwood retains more of the treatment).
 
/ Board Fence Installation #5  
Morning bud,

A wood rail fence can be a thing of beauty. I was raised fencing by a fenceman. Dad used to say what he liked best about fencing was you could drive up on a site and it wouldn't be anything. And when you were done it was a thing of beauty. Not many jobs could give you so much instant gratification for a job well done.

Your posts, I'd go steel. Second choice would be four by six cedar, third choice four by four cedar. Last choice short of suicide would be landscape timbers. There's a reason they're so cheap.

I'd want to go six foot centers on post spacing. Eight feet will work but six is much better over the long haul.

All of my post holes are one foot diameter and three feet deep or to rock, period, end of story, enough of that. They are full of concrete. That's two and a half sacks of sacrete per post if you're using eighty pound sacrete, which is fine btw. Maximizer is easier work with and so far has worked just as well.

Another thing I do is I clean the hole. Yup, I use a power post hole digger and then when I come back with manual post hole diggers and I clean the hole as well as I can.

You see I figured out awhile what causes the dips and sways in fences. It happens when that loose dirt eventually compacts. The concrete and post sags or dips accordingly.

I had a bud the other day ask me how come all my fences are straight six, eight, ten, years later while everyone elses are wavey. I told him I was just lucky. The simple truth is that little bit of extra time cleaning the hole and mixing the extra concrete, no, I don't pour sacrete in the hole and then come back watering it. BTW I like it when my competition does. It's so much easier removing the old post when doing a repair.

Your rails should be sixteen feet long if you're going eight foot centers. Ideally they would be twenty fours if you're going eights or sixes.

The reason for this is you want to stagger your joints as much as possible. This makes the fence much stronger. To place your rail joints at each post would be like bricking a wall and not staggering your joints.

Another thing that I've found is important is to have a substantial top plate. Let's say you're using four by six posts and two by six rails. On top of your posts you would place a two by six so that it would give your two by four top rail the profile of a two by six. You also want the joints of your top plate to be as far as possible apart and never ever anywhere but centered over a post.

What this does is give your fence some lateral strength so that it stays straight. I build fancy <A target="_blank" HREF=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst?&.dir=/Wood+fences+and+gates&.src=ph&.begin=9999&.view=t&.order=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst%3f%26.dir=/Wood%2bfences%2band%2bgates%26.src=ph%26.view=t>wood</A> fences. Some of them cost over a hundred dollars a lineal foot. But even my fifty dollar a lineal foot fence has a two by eight top cap. This allows me to drive by that fence many years later and not have it waving at me like we're family.

If you're going to use wolminized or treated materials keep in mind that the worst thing you can do is get wet material. You can never tell which direction it's gonna go when it dries. So always pick through and find the lightest boards. Chances are they are the ones that are in their final state.

Those two dollar and twenty nine cent landscape timbers are pure junk. They twist and bend as they dry out. They rot. And they have their knots in all the wrong places.

If you're doing this fence yourself as you can then I'd go stainless screws. If you're using a nail gun you can buy stainless nails for it. They're not cheap. But galvanized will react to cedar and the minerals in treated lumber.

There are few things more beautiful than a well built fence. But a fence is like the frame on a picture. A good one just blends in and isn't really noticed but by the discerning. But a bad one is so obvious that the quality of the picture is hard to appreciate.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #6  
How many years should I expect? The local sewer district uses landscape timbers to hold electrical boxes for grinder. Some of those have been in the ground 15+ years and are still fine. Sure I will have to replace them...maybe a few a year, but they are cheap.

I wont be setting them in concrete. Concrete hold/wicks moisture. So the post would be almost constantly wet if set in concrete. I plan on using the dirt from the hold with a couple of shovels of gravel in the bottom of the holes. I wont be using gravel in the bottom of holes that have alot of clay since I would just be creating a place for water to pool.

Farmers here have been using cut up trees for posts since I was a child. Without any treatment at all some of them are in the ground and strong after 30+ years.

With all that said, it depends on what you want the fence for. Im not trying to make a fashion statement, I just want to keep the kids and their 4 wheelers out, and some small animals (goats, etc) in. It will definately require upkeep every year, but since it is so cheap to build I dont mind.

Jon
 
/ Board Fence Installation #7  
Wroughton Harv - what a fence set-up. Have any digitized photos you can post? Sounds better than anything I've seen in my area (including my fence - my dock, in salt water on a busy channel with boat traffic, just now needs new pilings - 18 years after it was built, so I used the same type of wood on my fence posts - however, pretty it ain't).
 
/ Board Fence Installation #8  
Jon,


I hate to be another bearer of bad news but I have done quite a bit of fencing in my days and I can tell you that those "posts" you are talking about will rot in nothing flat. I know that the 4x4's cost significantly more but there is a reason for that. They will out last the semi rounded ones (2 flat sides) a long, long time. On my current fencing project I am using 6x6 treated posts every 50 ft. with 4x4's every 10 feet between. Definately more costly and probably overkill but......

I hope you haven't started yours yet as replacing the posts is not much fun. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
/ Board Fence Installation #9  
I've seen those landscape timber rot very quickly (less than 5 years) but I live out here in Seattle where it's pretty moist year around. I could be wrong - and usually am - but I'm guessing that the sewer district landscape timbers you are referring to aren't the same as the ones you mentioned above. I would think that they would use at minimum a .40 CCA treated post. Those type posts will last every bit of 15 years if not longer.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #10  
Cisco,

I haven't made a rail fence in forever. In fact the last one was with my father. It was a memorable moment. You know one of those moments when you just sit there with your head down enough to hide the grin as it goes from ear to ear and back again and again and again.

I was thirty. He was fifty two. I was back sighting in four by sit cedar posts so he was being my mud man.

Back sighting is when you sight in by eye your post for grade and line. Your mud man is constantly mixing enough concrete for the hole and putting it in the hole at your command.

On a good day a good back sighting man can kill two mud men.

It was about five in the evening and it had been hell on both of us cause the grade was up and down and four by six posts are awkward and heavy.

He asked if he could buy me a cup of coffee.

It was a memorable moment.

It was the first I'd ever worked with my father that he'd asked for a break before I did.

Now around livestock I put in welded pipe frame and usually a horse wire fabric. I still backsight them in. Of course sighting them in for grade and line means you have to cope the pipe for the top rail first.

One day while trying to defend the way I do my work it hit me what motivated me to be the way I am. All those years I was trying to get the respect of my father.

As I thought about that I realized I'd had it all along. And hell, I'm too old now to change.

Just today I had a customer come in and he caught me hammertoning a piece of quarter inch plate six inches wide and ten feet long.

He remarked that he'd assumed I had a machine to do that. I looked down at the three hammers and two chisels and sorta grinned and told him I sure did as I flexed my arm. It's for his new doors I'm making him. I'll have some pictures of the textured steel up on my web photo album probably tomorrow or next day.

I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it the way I do it. Everyone comments about how dumb it is to manually clean a hole after using a power auger. But there's a very good feeling to look into a hole and know that one hole is a good hole and you did it. Of course some jobs are really rewarding and you get that feeling sixty to seventy times in one day.

It's time to head down to the shop and put up the chickens and drive the truck home.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst?&.dir=/Wood+fences+and+gates&.src=ph&.begin=9999&.view=t&.order=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst%3f%26.dir=/Wood%2bfences%2band%2bgates%26.src=ph%26.view=t>wood fences by me</A>
 
/ Board Fence Installation #11  
wroughtn_harv
Nice fences. I really like the powered rolling gates.
Could you post some info about the mechanism you use on the gates?

Thanks
 
/ Board Fence Installation #12  
It wasn't until I was in bed last night that I recalled my latest and most unusual rail fence.

It was a little over a year ago when I got the call from a major fence company. They call me on the weird and unusual stuff.

They were doing a big project at the Ft Worth Zoo. He had to call me and rag on the architect who had come up with the idea for the longhorn pen. The whole office was up in stitches over some architect coming up with the idea of a fence with wood posts and pipe rails and it was to be done so it would look antique. It was so hilarious they wanted to share it with me.

I told him it wasn't nothing but a thing. Sounded down right fun to me. So I walked him through how I thought it had to be done step by step.

He called back a couple days later wanting to know how much I'd have to have to do it. I told him that I'd have to figure on it and I'd tentatively schedule him in for July. He said it had to be done by the tenth of May.

It was the end of April when he mentioned a number that escalated him and the project to the very front of my to do list.

So if you go to the Ft Worth Zoo and you ride the train to the Texas Wild Exhibit. When you hit the train station there you will see a big old longhorn in a pen. I did it.

We started off with eight inch eight foot split cedar posts. We drilled two and a half inch holes in the post for four rails. Each post had to be drilled as it was required because the fence is not straight. So all the holes were drilled halfway in and then a guessitimator aligned where the angle of the wrangle was going on the other side and that side was drilled.

I sat the first post. Then I measured center to center from there to the next hole and cut four two inch (2 3/8" O.D.) schedule forty pieces of pipe that length. I then drilled the next post.

Here's the good part. There's this product you can buy at wood working stores. It's called Gorilla Glue. It's meaner than an unemployed overweight mother in law at the wrong time of the month. It costs about thirty two dollars a quart and worth twice that.

Moisture activates the Gorilla Glue. So then we'd wet the holes in the posts with a spray bottle. The Gorilla Glue looks and handles about like honey. So we'd squirt a little glue on the ends of the pipes. Then we'd hammer the new post in until we had it plumb and the pipes home at both ends. Concrete in the recently set post and then start the process all over again.

The glue starts foaming up like insulation foam you get in that can in about ten minutes or so. It'd foam out of the holes. That worked really great. We came back and trimmed it off with five in one tools and other kinds of scrapers as required. Then they antiqued it and you couldn't see the hole because the foam filled in around the rail so it looked like the pipe had been nailed in.

There's three different sections of this kind of fence back there around the train station. I only did two of them. The other one was done by another crew as it was added after the Zoo saw what we were doing. That crew worked a little too fast and not up to the standards we used on my sections. I did the area inside the train turn around and the one behind the stalls. I also built the gates for the pens.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #13  
You said, "<font color=red>Im not trying to make a fashion statement, I just want to keep the kids and their 4 wheelers out, and some small animals (goats, etc) in.</font color=red>"

You might not be wanting to make a fashion statement but you will be. The first impression folks are gonna have of you is your fence. If it needs annual maintenance and you're tardy or miss it they won't.

A rail fence isn't gonna keep in goats. I've got two buds who have six foot chainlink around their pastures. One has completely given up on keeping goats. And the other has a couple of nannys that think my Bill hung the moon. He's like the Tom Jones of the goat world in my neighborhood I guess. I can't see his allure but they show up when they develop the need.

You'd think the problem with keeping goats would be them jumping over the fence. That isn't it. They go under and through.

I've got three goats and twenty two chickens at the shop. I've found three methods of keeping goats in. The most common is a hot wire. Hot wires work when they work. Let it go off and the goats instantly know it and they're off too.

But you can't drive my goats through an open gate out of the place. And they're wilder'n March hares, can't get near them.

I found out two things worked together are the best for goats.

Sweet feed and a good cussin'. I give them a scoop of sweet feed in the morning and evening when I feed the chickens. And if they look over the fence or out the gate they get a cussin'. I'm better than the average cusser as you can guess.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #14  
I use All o matics and AGES operators.

I go through all kinds of trouble trying my damnedest to install them where kids won't get hurt on them.

Just the thought of a kid getting killed or crippled on something I've built will make me sick for a week.

So I use a barrier beam device on them and I set the limit switches so that any pressure over normal closing needs causes them to reverse and open up.

I also make the gates a pocket to go in and out of if it is a privacy fence.

It's a lot of extra work and materials and some folks balk at the price. That's okay with me. If they can't afford to have it done right then they can't afford it to begin with and don't need it that bad. If they're too cheap to do it right then they're not my kind of customer anyway and the price was a great filter to keep us from mixing.

The problem with powered gates is they work with a simple command. They have no sense and all they do is run until they're told to shut off. If a kid gets in the mechanism the device has no conscience.

So I try to do everything to not allow innocent kids getting into the mechanism.

The other thing about powered gates is they have to have good frames and correctly installed tracks etc.

I do mine completely different from everyone else, character flaw, first to admit it.

But that twenty eight foot opening with the double gates? I've been there once in three years for a call on a problem. That problem was an operator problem, the homeowner was cleaning around the operator and accidently disconnected a wire in his enthusiasm.

I build a steel frame. I put wood on both sides of the frame if it's a privacy fence. Folks love the look inside and outside. But the logic behind the double side is kids can't climb on the gate from either side.

I build the steel frame with tabs to accept screws holding the wood frame work inside the steel frame. So if you looked at the gate from the end you'd see a full cut 2 X 4. Under it would be a 2X2 fourteen gauge piece of steel tubing. This is repeated down to the bottom of the frame. On an eight foot high gate like those in the pictures I have four horizontal rails.

Most folks use self tapping screws. It's so much easier with the nail gun. And my way you can continue nailing in your pickets as you're doing the fence. This gives it a continuity you can't have with changing over to screws just at the gate.

When you go get your rollers for the slide gate to roll on you will have the option between ten dollar Chinese and forty dollar sealed American. Buy American. There is a difference. The former is like kissing a rattlesnake. Chances are you're gonna regret it.

If up there it's like it is down here you can drive around and see disconnected powered gates all the time. It's sorta like driving by a scrap heap and you see all these cheap mowers that were thrown away and yet you never ever see a Honda in the pile. Funny how that works, quality.
 
/ Board Fence Installation #15  
Anyone use cresote posts anymore?

Soundguy
 
/ Board Fence Installation #16  
Soundguy,

People around here still use railroad ties for their fences. I believe these still contain creosote. You can find them used many times in somewhat good condition and therefore are getting a very large post for a good price.
 

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