Box Blading in Reverse

slowrev · Jul 8, 2004

Tractors are not even intended for pushing backwards very much, ignoring the 3 point hitch. They are designed to pull forward, else R1 tires would not be standard equipment on almost all tractors.
They don't grip worth a darn going backwards.
And yes you can break any lift arm out there if you abuse it enough. I have broken a category 2 ball end off trying to push a piece of equipment backwards through a mudhole. The worst thing was it was not my tractor /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

"Nope, 3-point systems are designed for pulling implements and the implements for 3-point systems are designed to be pulled. Your tires are directional and your seat faces the front. No engineering data is required. "

Don't tell that to the folks who make reversible/angled grader blades or rear mount snow blowers. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.S. some manufactuers even make seats now that swivel to allow the operator to easily see whats going on behind you. My L48 had one.

slowrev · Jul 8, 2004

Rear mount snowblowers are designed by chiropractors to increase their business /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

Good Answer /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

jinman · Jul 8, 2004

( Jim, your hoses look a bit rotted. )

Not rotted, but definitely exposed to 3+ years of Texas sun with SPF-0 sunblocker. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif If I replaced everything that was old and cracked, I'd have been gone a long time ago. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Actually the outside rubber has no function except to protect the woven wire on my hoses. The hoses are two-wire, so when the outer wire starts to fray, I'll get new hoses. These are far too big anyway. 1/4" hoses are plenty big for a toplink.

Did you mean to show a picture of your links on the tractor end? I saw your boxblade, but not your tractor's attach points.

Ozarker · Jul 8, 2004

Well a snow blower doesn;t really push alot. It mostly bites into the load and throws it away.

Again, whatever someone can make something do doesn't mean it was designed to do that.

As for your "captured: pins, it there wasn't any unusual outward force there would be no need to "capture" the pin so that it can't come off. The very fact that the plates of steel are there to trap the pin is evidence that someone decided to try and overcome the limits of the 3-point setup and force it to do something it wasn't originally designed to do. There is no need to trap the pins when pulling.

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

Now Jim, do you have pictures of each componet of your tractor. I wish I could dig up the ones of my L48 BULL DOZING backwards the approximately 2000 yards of material I had to cut. Don't mention to Slowrev just how well my L48 worked in reverse albeit with R4's, he would be surprised. I had several mounds at any given time that dwarfed our mobile home. It was surely was fun to do. I was backing down about a 35 degree slope the whole time doing it. My reversible rear mounted cutting blade did get flipped as my soil (decomposed granite) is very rough on steel. Admittedly, the two outter 5/8" brackets did bend ever so slightly form the pressure. I can only imagine what a couple of snap pins would have done.

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

The pin does not get captured, the lower link does. There is no reason to trap the pin pushing or pulling. The pin simply connects the implment to the the lower links as does the top link. If you push a loose pile of dirt with your boxblade and rely on the snap pin to contain the lower link, it is just a matter of time before you bend or shear that snap pin. My mower works the same so that when backing the mower up, the snap pin does not take the load, the lower link and yoke do.

You mention "someone" which I now believe is just about every boxblade manufactuer is now using the "steel plates" or a yoke to attach the lower links isn't something exclusive to "someone", it's pretty standard. It at the very least ensures longevity. My old 1973 International boxblade uses a attached pin and spring clip, it is not designed for rear boxblading. It's also for sale along with the International 454D that pulls it.

Anyway Ozarker, I think were in one of those circular debates one in which we can agree to disagree. It's been fun and something that has been a little needed around here, it's been a bit slow.

OkieG · Jul 8, 2004

I can't speak to the "designed for" or "not designed for" issue, and I will keep my opinion to my self.

Rather than push/pull, I tend to think of the forces as compression or tension (stretching) forces. Whether a support arm is on front mounted implement or a rear mounted implement, it seems to me it will more likely bend under compression, and is very unlikely to bend under tension forces. Take a yard stick, for example. Place a hand on each end. Bring your hands together and the yard stick bends. If you can make it bend by stretching it you're a lot stronger than I am.

In fact, I would venture to say that a 3PH lift arm could never be bent with tension force. However, I don't know if that is necessarily a convincing argument for the "not designed for" group re: pushing with a boxblade. One would suppose that support arms for front mount implements are "designed for" compression forces, but does that mean 3PH arms are not??

OkieG

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

Well George, while I'm here, I might as well address what I think of your post. Your exactly right in each aspect. I trust the engineers have considered the push/pull loads and have sized the lower links appropriately. The loader is mostly in compression in forward use and some tension (industrials with no knee have a bit more tension I would guess) in reverse but we don't just use it in reverse as much. I would say that is because those compressive loads have been considered and the adequate steel installed. Considering how relatively short the lower links are and just how thick mine are, I have no concern over their durability. In fact, if I bent one which has yet to happen with any of the 3 Kubotas I have used quite hard with a 72" boxblade, I would consider it a mixed blessing. I'd rather bend back or replace a lower link then the rear end of the tractor if you know what I mean. That could happen pulling or pushing as one fella with a JD 4310 showed awhile back while pulling with his tractor. (iamgott was his user name) Ed Brown You will have to dig through his posts to find it.

NIXON · Jul 8, 2004

This has been (and still is ) an interesting and informative thread . While I don't yet own a box blade ( seems like every time I have the bucks something of equal dollar value breaks ) I do own a rear blade . For me it's easier to blade down things in reverse . I can watch the blade (and as RAT explained it drive on fairly level ground )and where I'm going at the same time . But I also go as slow as possible so as not to bend or break anything . John

Henro · Jul 8, 2004

Well I must say...how do you guys box blade in reverse? My box blade only goes on one way... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think you can push dirt backwards with the back cutting edge, but honestly, I don't think going backwards and going frontwards produces the same effect at all...doesn't for me anyway...but I have never claimed to be real talented... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So I gotta ask, as a sort of continuation to this thread idea, do you really box blade in reverse? Or do you just push the dirt and maybe scrape the soil a little bit? That is what I seem to do...but I don't have a large tractor and I don't have a top-shelf box blade...so what do I know... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ozarker · Jul 8, 2004

( The pin does not get captured, the lower link does. There is no reason to trap the pin pushing or pulling. )

There is no reason to trap the lower link unless there is a possibility that it might be forced off.

They haven't designed the box blade to be a dozer in reverse, they have tried to prevent those who use it that way from injuring themselves. The same reason that mowers have blade stops. They didn't design the mower for you to stick your foot under it. They just tried to prevent those that do stick their foot under it from being injured.

Yes, they know that people will misuse the equipment. That is why TSC and others have a large selection of replacement lower arms.

Again, equipment designed to hook up to the rear of a tractor on the 3-point system is designed to be pulled. Equipment designed to be hooked up to the front is designed to be pushed. Operators can and do sometimes pull equipment designed to be pushed and push equipment designed to be pulled. In fact, I do that sometimes. But my misuse of a piece of equipment does not constitute a redesign.

_RaT_ · Jul 8, 2004

Ozarker, whatever you say. I'll just say I'm wrong and that we think on different levels.

Henro, I typically cut in reverse as well as make my very last finish grade on gravel roads. The reason is that I can get very fine leveling of the gravel without the bumps and dips influencing the tractors angle. In other words, the box tilted forward, going in reverse allows me the most precise leveling. In this instance, I am using the front blades backside. I get the most control because in addition to the boxscraper being the leader, it also levels the already fairly leveled gravel and the rest of the tractor can ride on a much smoother surface. It works well for me. I also have a great TnT setup that adds a great deal of utility add to that my 72" box which is about 1000lbs. It's a good match for my L3830 HST.

Egon · Jul 8, 2004

Henro:
With a larger tractor and some hydraulic controls a boxblade works very well in reverse. It allows the operator to work in very close quarters. He can get into areas not possible by going forwards.

Egon

To20Chris · Jul 8, 2004

Henro,

I have a cheap 60" TSC box blade. I've used it backwards now a lot more times than I thought I would. Mostly when I'm working on something I can't drive over, like pushing dirt onto a bank or something. I guess I could use the FEL, but I can see better with the back of the BB. Recently I used the FEL to drag some rocks out of the tree line into the open, then I used the BB in reverse to push them into a dirt bank I was building up. My BB doesn't really weigh enough to cut in much in reverse.

OkieG · Jul 8, 2004

RaT,
Thanks, tension is the word I was looking for. I've amended my post to include it.

 The loader is mostly in compression in forward use and some tension ... in reverse but we don't just use it in reverse. 

The only time I use the loader in reverse is to backblade with the bucket. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I get a nice smooth finish that way. I'm still quite an amatuer boxblade user, which may be one reason why.

Ozarker,
Despite my sometimes skeptical nature, I'm not disputing you.

 They haven't designed the box blade to be a dozer in reverse, they have tried to prevent those who use it that way from injuring themselves....Yes, they know that people will misuse the equipment....Again, equipment designed to hook up to the rear of a tractor on the 3-point system is designed to be pulled. 

And, I don't mean to try your patience with my ignorance, but I just wonder how you know your statements are correct? Somehow, pinned vs. captured, tire tread, seat facing forward, etc. doesn't quite move my intuition off the fence like looking at two cutting edges facing opposite directions. Perhaps, the rear-most of the two blades is only there for feathering while driving forward. But, my intuition sees the two edges, and figures use is appropriate in both directions. By the way, intuition in this post = ignorance. So, please excuse me.

OkieG

Henro · Jul 8, 2004

Egon and To20Chris,

I know...and I think my point was in reverse there is no box...

I push with mine in the reverse direction too...but it just does not seem to compare to what happens when I use it in the forward direction.

Now I must admit I never reversed the scarifiers...but still even if i did, the box would not have a back to it...

So it still seems to me that while the box is a good pusher in reverse...and mabye a light duty scraper...in reverse it does not compare to what it can do in forward...

But like I said...more or less said...mine is a cheap KK that I think really does give a great bang for the buck... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

jinman · Jul 9, 2004

( Again, equipment designed to hook up to the rear of a tractor on the 3-point system is designed to be pulled. )

Ozarker, you should probably not look at the attachment so you can continue your rigid, narrow view of tractor use. But, while you are only going forward, some of us are quite happy to use implements like the Bush Hog Roll Over boxblade. We can get work done in both directions and that equates to productivity in my book. I think Bush Hog agrees with me. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

OkieG · Jul 9, 2004

I push with mine in the reverse direction too...but it just does not seem to compare to what happens when I use it in the forward direction.

Yea, me too. I think there is a threshold boxblade weight and tractor weight that allows good results in both directions. My equipment is below the threshold.

OkieG