Brake steering?

[MikeBurr]

I have the TC33d(hydrostat=go pedal), the brakes have a pedal for the left & right wheels, but how can you use the brakes to steer? If I take my foot off the go pedal, the tractor comletely stops. There is no way to operate the go and one of the brake pedals at the same time!!!! Has anyone any hints on how work all pedals at the same time? The reason I would/need to steer is I use the FEL to back drag when smoothing dirt and the front wheels will leave the ground quit often(lumpy hard ground). If I could use the brakes to add a little steering, the leveling would go a lot faster.
Anyone tried to move the brakes to the left side? Seems like they would be alot more usefull on the left side.

TC33D

 

[LarryT]

Interesting question MikeBurr. I've wondered about the brake and HST pedal several times when I found myself in a precarious position on a steep hill. If I take my foot off the brake, the tractor rolls, possibly into a dangerous situation. The amount of time between the releasing the brake and applying the HST can be scary. I've been in this position often enough that I've learned how to use my left foot on the HST and my right foot on the brake. A bit awkward but works. Much easier for forward than reverse! Still, makes me wonder if the guys that design these things ever use them.

Larry...

 

[MJB]

I'm not brand bashing here, but the location of the brakes on the same side as the HST pedals was one of several factors which eliminated NH and Kubota (and Cub Cadet for that matter) from my possible purchase list. I suspect that the reason the engineers (or the bean counters) designed them that way is to save money. Keeping the brakes on the right side regardless of transmission type means one less thing to design (and one less thing to manufacture and keep in stock) for the company. You may not need to use the turning brakes often with an HST but when you need them you NEED THEM./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Fugitive from the Cubicle Police

 

[Knight9]

Have to agree with MJB. When I looked at the JD 4200 as part of my tractor investigation the saleman really beat up on the idea of the "uselessness" of the brakes on other brands (being on the same side as the hydrostatic pedal). I basically decided that for my purposes it was not an issue. In all applications I see myself doing I can't really see using the brakes to steer. Perhaps this is because I never grew up with tractors in the fields using brake steering?! In any event, although it may be a shortcoming of design for Kubota etc, it is one I consciously decided wasn't going to "break the deal" for me anyway.

Kevin

 

[IndianaPaul]

Mike:

Just curious, but what year is your TC33D? The TC45D I just got has the brakes on the left, hydo pedals on right side of deck.

Paul

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Kevin/MJB,
I also agree with MJB, and this WAS a factor in my choice of JD over Kubota.

If Kevin's dealer stressed the poor-design of the "same-side" hst/brakes, mine didn't have-to, ... I was already turned off by it. Such an obvious screw-up made me wonder what ELSE (maybe-not-so-apparent) was designed using the same "thinking". Maybe nothing, ...but I didn't like wondering.

The (several) Kubota dealer's I pointed this out to didn't make any points with their "you don't need it anyway", dismissal of the issue. /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

I'll decide if I need it. And every major tractor mfg. (with a heck-of-a-lot more tractor savvy than I have), has included them, at some definte expense, and probably, for a reason. INCLUDING KUBOTA! "Hey, nobody needs this, but let's put it on our tractor anyway!" I don't think so.

It's an embarrasing screw-up, and I'd prefer the dealers to just admit it. (like the poorly designed "old-style"front axles on the JD 4000 series, that have been changed.) Well, not JUST admit it, ... admit it and then CHANGE it.

In my mind, there's no excuse to continue marketing a product with obviously -poorly-designed features.

It's "polite" to not-mention this when talking to "owners:", and I don't. But I think prospective new buyers deserve honest opinions, and this is mine.

From the many "satisfied" reports on TBN from knowledgeable/respected members, I'm sure that Kubota makes a great tractor overall.

But, concerning this "turning-brake" issue, I'm still waiting for ANYONE to make "good sense" of it!? /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Larry

 

[Knight9]

Larry,

I certainly agree with many of your points. But let me give a "tractor newbie" view on this issue. I'm going to use my tractor for keeping several acres' grass under control, maintaining a driveway, tilling a garden, and mowing a fairly large lawn. My very limited /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif understanding of brake steering is that it was originally created in order to facilitate a tighter turn when working in the fields (plowing, harrowing or whatever). I certainly would never want to use it on my lawn or driveway. I can see it being potentially useful when tilling a garden (?).

Having said that, I certainly agree that the design on the Kubota and other major colors (various models) is hard to figure out. I suppose if I really wanted to brake steer I could do so with the hyrdo locked on cruise. I'm going on memory here but I believe the manual for my B2410 specifically stated that hitting either the left or right brake does not shut off the "cruise". In order to do so you have to depress both pedals. This would suggest that if I was tilling a garden I could lock the hydro in at some nice slow speed, till along then hit the appropriate brake to assist the turn. Two right feet not required /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. I have yet to try this (in fact I have yet to try much at all!) and don't know if I ever will...but perhaps others have and can comment.

I would think it is still in Kubota's best interest to address this down the road but I certainly don't see it as a major flaw that should force the whole brand to be "ruled out".

Kevin

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi Kevin,

[[[I would think it is still in Kubota's best interest to address this down the road but I certainly don't see it as a major flaw that should force the whole brand to be "ruled out".]]]

I hope I made it clear (as I tried-to, with one of my last sentences) that I don't doubt that Kubota (for example ) makes fine tractors "overall". But this thread addresses "brake-steering", and with that in mind, I stand by my remarks.

The fact that there is a "work-around" is nice, but is not the same as a "fix". Some may wish to control their speed with-their-foot while "brake-turning", ...cruise-control is definitely not "YOU-control".

I'm glad that you don't feel this one element is of much consequence to you. Enjoy your tractor, whatever brand /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

This factor was certainly-not the only reason for my personal (admittedly subjective - like everyone else's) choice of a JD.

Best wishes,

Larry /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Knight9]

Larry,

Just out of curiousity what JD did you purchase? Can't find a profile for you! /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Kevin

 

[Bird]

Kevin, you're right, you can brake steer using the cruise and I've done it occasionally. The cruise only releases if you hit both brake pedals. And there is also another way it can be done. The cruise does not release when you depress the clutch, so you can have the throttle AND cruise set and control speed with the clutch (I wouldn't recommend that for a great deal of use, of course). Fact is that I'm among those for whom brake steering is not all that important so I'm satisfied with my Kubota, but I agree with the others that having individual brake pedals on the left would be nice occasionally, so long as there's still a brake pedal on the right, too. I'm afraid in an emergency situation, most of us are going to stomp with our right foot instead of the left./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

 

[RobertN]

The Turning brake function on my Kubota is useless, and yes sometimes it would be handy.

I think the turning brakes are really a left over. They just did not design two brake systems, one for gear and one for HST. I think it's the $$$ of stocking and building two systems.

The other factor I think, is that with power steering and all, they probably don't think we need turning brakes. You figure the old tractors with no power steering and heavy implements were hard to steer, so turning brakes were a great thing.

Another factor is probably that you don't want turning brakes with a 4x4 anyways; it'll tear up the drivetrain. If you hit just one brake, it'll stress the whole drivetrain.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Kevin,
I decided on a JD 4700.[[[ what JD did you purchase? Can't find a profile for you! ]]]

Will have profile, etc. soon, w/pix & info about my tractor which is a little bit "different". may get it this weekend or next, ...watch for "Superbaby" post /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

RobertN,

I haven't seen any mention of this: [[[Another factor is probably that you don't want turning brakes with a 4x4 anyways; it'll tear up the drivetrain. ]]]

How bout it guys, ...any "torn-up" 4X4 drivetrains out there? Would the mfgrs. not warn of such damage, if use actually means "mis-use"? Seems like they'd be asking for trouble w/customers with such "problems". /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Larry

 

[RobS]

I used my brake steering quite extensively when discing last fall as I was going up and down in rows. I did use the 4wd, but honestly cannot now remember if I disengaged it or not. I remember being very busy at the end of each row between lifting the disc, releasing the diff lock, throttling back a bit (I was discing pretty fast) and executing the turn with the steering and brake. It is very possible that one of my other tasks was to disengage the 4wd and it certainly turns tighter in 2wd anyway. In any event, the brake steering made all the difference for me in saving time not having to back up and realign with the row. It is pretty hard on the ground though, and I wouldn't consider it for finish or even semi-finish turf (though I've got R1s). Hope this helps /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I wouldn't think hitting the brakes would do any more damage then having one wheel in a slipping condition and one wheel not, which can be very often. Granted it doesn't work very well in 4WD to use the turning brakes, but most of the time I'm using them when the front wheels are off the ground or just about off the ground.

 

[Snell]

<font color=blue>. Such an obvious screw-up made me wonder what ELSE (maybe-not-so-apparent) was designed using the same "thinking". </font color=blue>

Why the inflamatory statements? This board does a great job of answering questions in an honest, unbiased fashion... the implications of shooting off at the mouth really hurt what the board is all about.

<font color=blue>concerning this "turning-brake" issue, I'm still waiting for ANYONE to make "good sense" of it!? </font color=blue>

If you refer to the American Society of Agricultural Engineers, part of the definition of a farm tractor is that the clutch is located on the left while two brakes are located on the right. Kubota wants to keep the classification of farm tractor so until the ASAE changes its standards, the brakes will be on the right.

<font color=blue>like the poorly designed "old-style"front axles on the JD 4000 series, that have been changed.</font color=blue>

There is a big difference between a tractor that is designed incorrectly and needs major modifications and those that have been designed to meet standards. I don't even see how the two compare.

<font color=blue>I suspect that the reason the engineers (or the bean counters) designed them that way is to save money,</font color=blue>

It costs no more money, no engineering feat, no extra parts to put the brake on the left. Just a shaft under the transmission. Kubota did have the brakes on the left of their front mowers, but by no stretch of the imagination would that of been considered a farm tractor.

Turning brakes were designed to make a tight turn at the end of the field with a two wheel drive tractor pulling implements. If you have the tractor in 4WD with a front loader, you will only be dragging the rear tires around. The front axle will turn at its intended speed and make little difference in the turning radius. You are much better using the forward and reverse of the hydrostat to put you in position.

A little off the topic, those of you that saw the JD comparison video, please note that Kubota was not even mentioned (due to the fact it has a tighter turning radius then the JD's comparable tractors) and with the NH SuperSteer, they had the bucket down... even if just in the float position (who knows if there was down pressure applied)... you are negating the intention of SS by lifting pressure off the front wheels.

I get excited when anyone purchases a compact tractor... no matter the color. Everyone finds their own perfect fit. Remember..."we're all in this together". I'm impressed how level headed everyone remains although I am sure there is much bias out there (I'm probably at the top of the list). Keep on tractoring...

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi Snell,

Wasn't trying to be inflammatory, ...should have said "WHAT SEEMED TO ME an obvious screw-up (after getting no reasonable explanation from anyone), made me wonder ...etc," .

With this "correction"I'm simply making a statement of fact; it DID "make me wonder, etc." If my "uncorrected" statement constituted "shooting-off-at-the-mouth", ...I apologise! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Remember, your "explanation", if indeed you can speak for Kubota, is the FIRST one other than "you don't need it anyway!", that I have heard from anyone, over the last year spent talking to Kubota dealers and seeing the question discussed (not just this-time) on TBN. Seems the dealers would know/say what you have said, if that is in fact "the answer".

As to the ASAE definition issue making "good" sense, I'll leave that to someone else to decide. (One of my hobbies is small-boat-design, and many a design has been "warped" away from "performance" goals, to make it "fit" some class restrictions, Such artificial design-considerations have always seemed inappropriate, TO ME, when the fundamental "honesty" of the sea's requirements are considered. The "open-class" design world is the one where people can do their best to meet the requirements of moving a form safely-and-efficiently through the various states of the waters surface, rather than their best to meet some other PERSON'S "definition" or standard. That is the way I want MY boat designed. That is the way I want MY tractor designed.

In other words; design it to DO-THE-JOB, not to fit some "definition". /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

I am a little surprised that my (repeated) observation that Kubota "makes great tractors (as evidenced by the many happy owners reporting on TBN,)" apparently did little to keep you from being "inflamed" by my other statements.

[[[There is a big difference between a tractor that is designed incorrectly and needs major modifications and those that have been designed to meet standards. I don't even see how the two compare.]]]
If both "paths" lead to a tractor that doesn't do-the-job in the best way, it seems TO ME that THAT is "how the two compare".

[The "bean-counter" quote was not from my post, so I won't comment on that.]

[[[Turning brakes were designed to make a tight turn at the end of the field with a two wheel drive tractor pulling implements. If you have the tractor in 4WD with a front loader, you will only be dragging the rear tires around. The front axle will turn at its intended speed and make little difference in the turning radius.]]]

Okay. So if I want to make tight turns, pulling implements, with my (now-in-2WD-so-I-can-MAKE-tight-turns)tractor, I will use my turning brakes (right?). Now, as I was saying, ...about that pedal placement...!!! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I hope that honest opinion, even strongly-differing or plainly-stated, IS what the board is all about.

Respectfully, /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Snell,

...sorry, I meant to include;
[[[I get excited when anyone purchases a compact tractor... no matter the color. Everyone finds their own perfect fit. Remember..."we're all in this together". I'm impressed how level headed everyone remains although I am sure there is much bias out there (I'm probably at the top of the list). Keep on tractoring...]]]

Regarding "bias" effects; I was "shopping", trying to decide the wisest-use of limited funds, having NO tractor experience or "brand-loyalty", and actually having been influenced somewhat TOWARDS KUBOTA by the enthusiastic owners on TBN, ...when I formed the impressions I have referred to here in this thread. The closest dealer to me is a Kubota dealer. So I don't think bias was a factor (at least not consciously,) in my thinking.

Larry /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MikeBurr]

My TC33D is a 2000 model.I kinda agree that brakes are on the right both because of cost and on the non-hydrostat model it would be the most logical place to have them. Of course for the extra money that the D model cost, and they had to add go pedal any way, they could have put the brakes on the left side. But then, maybe none of them use the FEL for back dragging dirt/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

TC33D

 

[Anonymous Poster]

With all due respect, I'm not sure the discription given, of what makes a farm tractor (required clutch posistion?), is valid. New Holland TC35D, TC40D, and TC45D certainly meet "farm tractor" status here in KY. OK, small farm tractor... All have standard, very useable turning/steering brake pedals on the LEFT and two seperate Hydrostat pedals on the right (forward & reverse). This arrangement is one of the several deciding factors in my purchase of a NH TC35D. Also, I don't believe many consider the hydrostat to be, or have a clutch. IMHO the issue is manufacturing $, additional parts/part #/stocking inventory... , to modify tractor models that are seldom used in the type of situations requiring brake steering. Remember, keep your ROPS up and at least two of those tires on the ground.