Brakes for 425 & 1430

[Piedmont3]

"But I often wonder if I will have the automatic reactions needed if an accident would happen."

I think we will only know the answer to this question when it happens. We can practice all kinds of things for the what if it happens? situations... BUT, we will only know what happens in the When it happens situations. Some of us react one way and some of us react other ways. I can just hope we all have the chance to look back and say " Man, am I glad I made it through that.."

 

[blackwell]

PT showed me a PT1430 with wet brakes and a solenoid operated release which worked well but added $2000.00 to the price. They were concerned that this would be hard to sell.
I don't think that some people understand that just changing the wheel motors is only part of the cost, you still have to operate the brakes, which requires a constant pressure supply and valving. Most don't understand that in manny cases you must change all 4 motors because some series do not offer the exact same displacement with and without brakes. Thus changing only 2 motors will have one end of the machine travling at a different speed than the other.
PT is working to improve all segments of each machine, but remain concerned about making them too expensive.
I saw machines being tested with many different upgrades but each machine only goes thru the redesign process every 3 to 4 years in which PT takes into consideration all suggestions, use some and disguard others.
I was impressed with their level of R&D, testing, and considering others ideas. We all can make suggestions, but PT as with any company has to look at all their costomers and make the best judgment possible as to what will satisfy most of them. Sometimes the answer is no. I have designed things all my life, PT's are one of the simplist designs out there, its easy to design things, but its hard to keep designs simple and make them work. The PT does both.
EB

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

First, I don't have a PT and have never seen one much less taken a wheel off of one. With that in mind here's a question: why can't they just add rear drum brakes that are spring actuated? There's no need for anything more complex...it's just you need something to stop the machine when it won't do it on its own and something more effective (durable, reliable) then the pin engagement system that's there now. This brake (call it an "Emergency Brake" if you want) could be hand actuated with a handle you pull out. Look at an old Isuzu Trooper to get what I mean. This setup doesn't sound to terribly complex to me: handle, ratchet mechanism, cable, drums. Of course you might want to cut power to the wheels when the handle is pulled and that would simply assist the braking action.

While the prototype system mentioned for the 1430 sounds nice, I think PT is right in thinking people aren't going to want to spend $17K for a 1430 vs the current $15K. But I also think PT needs to consider what those numbers will get you in the CUT world...one of those things being brakes.

I think it's great that the PT is unique and its made here. This is definitely the type of equipment that I would have vs a CUT (like my neighbors have) that seem very limited in their functionality a lot of the time (but then, those guys aren't taking on the size of projects that I do). But in some ways the PT seems downright hazardous to operate because of design flaws. Was it Fourteen that mentioned that he had to rig something up to improve the treadle? Fine there are some things that everyone can fix on their own to make these better machines but you gotta ask yourself: why doesn't PT see these things as problems and correct them? Why is it that the engine compartment was reconfigured something like two times over the past 12-18 months with one of those designs being fundamentally dumb? I'm referring to the notorious gas tank mounted to the engine cover.

Sorry to say it but I think the PT 425 is perhaps overpriced by about $1500 already and that's just a reflection of the fact that PT is small and these products are built in small volumes. At $8000 the 425 would offer true value and be priced accordingly compared to CUTs (when considering build quality, features, brand name recognition, poor resale value, oh and the fact that you can't find a PT service center in your neighborhood). At $9500 its a bit of a novelty and offers exclusivity but it also gives you something where the ROPS function has only been tested by some unfortunate people in this forum.

So if I were PT I would eliminate the 400 and only offer the 425 at $8000. The jump from the price of the current 400 to $8000 is more palatable. And everyone would get a better machine. And PT could concentrate on making the one model better vs two models.

Now I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy a PT 425 because of the points I'm making, I'm just saying that I don't feel it's a particularly good deal.

 

[Rip]

EB,

I live and work on very steep terrain, so forgive me if I seem a bit more passionate about brakes than many. I specifically chose the 1845 due to the Brake Tender system.

That said, I realize that most folks are not operating under the same conditions I am and/or may be willing to take some level of greater risk than I.

I do feel strongly however that the pin-type parking brake on the smaller machines is inadequate and certainly less safe than it can be.

As I have said in several other posts on this subject, cost is the issue. It would most likely cost an owner several thousand dollars to retrofit a 1430 or even 425 with wet disc on all four wheels including the plumbing.

I do not feel it would cost nearly that much at the factory level to include four wet disc motors with the 1430/2430 machines, or two on a 425 size machine. (Yes I understand that wheel motors with and without brakes would have to be otherwise identical; many such "twins" are available.)

Cost and market share may dictate that 180 and 422 class machines may still be left behind in this regard. It would greatly improve the safety and utility of the other two larger machine classes, and probably result in more not less sales as the lack of real brakes now turns a lot of people away from these othewise very good tractors.

While I went for the "gold" so-to-speak with the Brake Tender, I may well have purchased a unit with only 4 wheel wet disc, but would not have considered one with only the pin set-up.

I think PT really needs to figure out how to do what needs to be done before someone has a serious accident that would have been preventable at reasonable cost.

Just my opinion..... I realy like my 1845, but then again, I have real brakes also. A 1430 would probably have worked as well power and capacity wise, but no brakes. I could afford to step up to the bigger machine, others may well turn elsewhere.

Be Safe, Not Sorry.... and Good Luck

 

[blackwell]

We have 5 Pt's, with wet brakes, with pin in slot, with Brake Tender. They are all only parking brakes, the hydrastatic brakes controlls the machines. The gas units can only be used on 25 degree slopes, 1430 on 30 deg, 1445, 1460,2445, 2430, 2460 on 30 max. degree. The 1845 on 40 degree and the 1850 on 45 degree. Most people that think these machines are not safe either don't own one or they are trying to use them on too steep a slope. I have rolled 2 other brands of machines and am still here, PT"S are one of the safest machines on the market, IF USED CORRECTLY.
I"M amazed at all the "experts" giving advice about something they have never seen and others that don't know what they are talking about.
EB

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> They are all only parking brakes </font>

I think many folks have missed that point. Parking brakes are not emergency brakes. Also, the PT can't be put into neutral as there is no neutral. So the only chance of a runaway would be if a hose burst or there was some other catastrophic failure of the hydraulic system.

If you read some of the other forums here on TBN you will read stories of people with tractors taking scary rides down hill when they either hit nuetral, carried too much weight and the rears come off the ground rendering the brakes useless, etc... it happens to all makes and models eventually. Just who gets to be the "lucky" test pilot is determined by fate, misfortune or lapses of common sense or good safety habits. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

You have to think about these things when you operate a machine. If you are headed down hill you have to think about what your plan of action is. Will I hit that tree? Will I end up in that ditch? If I turn too sharp will I tip over? Maybe I should slow down so I can have more time to react.

Those kinds of things are the same things we are supposed to think about when we drive cars, operate power tools or carry a sharp tool to the wood pile, for example: What if I fall while carrying my hatchet? I try to think like that, and most of the time I do. Sometimes, but rarely, I run on auto pilot. That is when bad things can happen.

A PT is just a machine. It has its own characteristics. We, as the operators, have to know and understand these characteristics. I think the reason people choose a PT over a conventional tractor is they realize it does the tasks that they need done better than the converntional tractor would. It is the right tool for their tasks. It may not be the right tool for some other tasks where a convetional tractor would work better, or maybe they are not comfortable with no dealer network, or maybe they don't like the characteristics of the machine. But that is something we all have to weigh out in our minds.

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

I think blackwell and MR bring up good points.

I just want to clarify once again to blackwell that I never meant to hint that I'm an expert on this matter (if that comment was directed at me) beyond the fact that I have a hill, I have a little tractor that has a hydrostatic drive and I still feel compelled to use the brake sometimes to slow it down when hauling a trailer with about 300 pounds of pea gravel in it down a hill. And I don't consider my hill to be very steep (around 8% slope) but I don't know how much more of an expert one needs to be to recommend brakes on a heavy piece of machinery that is only going to get heavier when loaded.

Put another way....if a $50 childrens' bicycle from WalMart can come with brakes why shouldn't a $9500 tractor?

So the only way to stop a PT 180,422,425,1430 going down a hill is to lay off the treadle and if that doesn't stop it jam it in reverse and then engage the parking brake? How long will the wheel motors last under when subjected to this type of activity on a regular basis?

My assumption so far is that most people that buy the above listed PTs are using them on fairly level land. This is the case for folks buying most lawn tractors, garden tractors, and probably CUTs too. Obviously this is the right equipment for that group. But then the problem becomes, as RIP pointed out, one of price. Just because I have more hills than someone else it does not mean that I'm prepared/willing/able to spend $6000 or $8000 more just to get (not better but simply) brakes.

Looking at the parking brake argument (just to be complete and to possibly annoy as many people as possible) I think it's incorrect to suggest something is "just a parking brake" only to be used to prevent the vehicle from moving when stopped. If the parking brake on cars worked this way then the truly would be useless emergency mechanisms. In a car, if you lost power the parking brake would be used to stop the vehicle. Of course, since most people don't set the parking brake in their AT cars and instead rely only on that little pin to stop the thing from rolling, it's no surprise that PT would design a pin mechanism.

Here's an analogy: If the trigger on a particular rifle didn't spring back after you fired a round would it be appropriate to suggest that the equipment is safe provided that you keep this flaw in mind?

Really, this is just a question of poor design. Just like that problem with the pivot pin where someone mentioned to lubricate the part each time you took the tractor out in order to prevent premature failure. While that solution might help the issue is that its asking the user to change their behavior in order to overcome a flaw in the design of the equipment. Or how about "be careful not to spill fuel on the hot engine because in a moment of engineering brilliance PT mounted the gas tank to the engine cover." /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The PT 425 could be a much much better product if people were not so willing to dismiss its shortcomings. Just imagine, if it were a much better product PT could grow even faster, sell more, and reduce prices for the better product thanks to the laws of economics. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Without a doubt the product is most of the way there but it's getting the last 10% of it right that seems to be taking a while and as long as PT insists on sticking to that 4 year design schedule (or whatever it is) they ain't going to get there anytime soon. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[MossRoad]

<font color="blue"> just to be complete and to possibly annoy as many people as possible) </font>

You're not annoying me. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif These are legitimate concerns for anyone spending their hard earned money and concerned with safety, so keep bringing up these points.

<font color="blue">So the only way to stop a PT 180,422,425,1430 going down a hill is to lay off the treadle and if that doesn't stop it jam it in reverse and then engage the parking brake? </font>

There is no jamming it in reverse. As you let up on the forward pedal with your right foot, the reverse pedal goes down(remember that it is a treadle) and the flow of fluid lessens and the tractor slows down. It becomes a very natural motion for your left foot to continue the downward pressure should the unit not come to a complete stop. At some point in that motion, your brain will automatically find the place to put your feet so the tractor stands still. As for setting the parking brake on a steep hill, if the hill is so steep that the unit isn't stopping all the way when the treadle is centered, you probably shouldn't be parking it there.

I also have a late 70's IH2500B tractor/loader. It is a 50PTO HP 2 wheel drive hydrostatic unit. It has brakes. I never use the brakes on it either. If you let off the forward pedal it stops just like my PT425. And it weighs nearly 8000 pounds as opposed to the twelve hundred or so pound PT425.

Now here's what I find impressive... the PT can lift almost 2/3 of it's weight while my IH could only lift 1/3 of it's weight. The hydraulics on the PT425 are very strong. It has a seperate pump for the drive system and a seperate pump for the steering, lift arms and auxillary PTO and a seperate pump for the main PTO. I can tell you that this thing feels very safe going up and down hills. The only thing I ever get worried about is my turf tires losing traction and the unit sliding down a hill on wet grass or mud. All the brakes in the world will not help me there.

I agree with you that brakes would probably not be that expensive to add, but after operating this machine for close to 3 years, I can honestly say that I have never used them(because there aren't any) and therefore I have never needed them. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you ever get the chance to operate one, by all means, please take a test drive. They really are fun to operate, super productive and a great machine for a homeowner or business. All the mentioned shortcommings, all the flaws, all the problems are still far outweighed by the positve things these machines have to offer. You just have to know what you are getting into and decide if you can stomach it if a problem arrises. Are you going to solve the problem yourself or not? Even if they had dealerships what would you do if it was out of warranty... take it to the dealer for repair or fix it yourself? I prefer to fix things myself if at all possible and cost affective. If it is cheaper to have someone else fix something, then I'll do that.

Please don't take this as a like it or lump it type response as I sometimes have trouble with typed conversations VS face to face. Your concerns and comments are valid and valued to me and they make me think. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[FOURTEEN]

The Parking Brake on the PT-425 is the PARK position on a car's AT. PARK is not designed to stop a car, just keep it from moving. Same on the PT-425!

When, or if, you do become a PT-425 owner, you will soon learn that the treadle system works very well. Usually just letting off on the Forward Pedal is all that is needed for a nice smooth stop. For an even quicker stop, or going down hill, some Reverse Pedal will do the trick. Being able to smoothly go from forward to stop to reverse to stop to forward to etc is so much better than trying to brake, clutch, shift, brake, clutch, shift, etc, that it is difficult to believe until you have actually done it in uneven field conditions! After using my PT-425 for 125 hours on various terrain with several attachments, the controls have become completely intuitive, just like driving my car.

Recently I was filling a narrow 3" wide ditch with crushed stone from the steep uphill side while making sure that none of the stone spilled into the dirt piled on each side. With 700# in the bucket, I was able to slowly approach the ditch going downhill forward by using light pressure on the Reverse Pedal. If the bucket extended too far over the ditch, a little more Reverse Pedal brought it back into place. Not far enough, use a little less Reverse Pedal. After gently filling that section, I would retreat back up the hill with more Reverse Pedal, zigzag over 4', then back down to fill the next section. During the entire process I never touched the Forward Pedal until it was time to refill the bucket!

I always felt in complete control! If in the extremely unlikely scenerio that I had lost power or hydraulics, dropping the bucket, or lifting the Parking Brake handle would have brought the PT to an abrupt stop, though perhaps with some minor damage. (Note that the PT can not be moved with the engine off unless the Towing Valve is opened.)

The PT design is safe, and very easy to use! It seems that adding some sort of emergency brake is like carrying a parachute with you on an airliner!! So buy yourself a PT-425! I'm sure that your current fears will quickly dissipate as you marvel at what a great tractor it really is!!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ernemats]

I have had my pt 422 for over 4 years now and nearly 650 hours on it. My property is mostly hills from 10 to 25 degree slope. I have gone up and down hills with no problems like MR and 14 have said you just take your foot off the forward treddle and you will almost come to a complete stop on any slope and if not just apply a little reverse treddle. Even with a trailer behind weighing over 900 pounds my pt will almost stop completely on a slope of 15 degrees coming down hill by just leaving off the treddle. I agree with you at times it would be nice to have a brake but it is really not that often I would ever use it on my pt .