Bridge Questions

[tlj87]

Looking at that video was really an eye-opener for me.

You not only need a bridge, abutments, and approaches, you also need a plan for inspection of these structures after a high water event.

The bridge may look perfectly sound after a flood, but could collapse under you & your vehicle from hidden damage. Be sure your engineer considers this problem also.

I strongly suspect you could put in a new well and septic on the road side of the stream for much less investment than a proper bridge will cost. A new house will be nicer and less costly than renovating the existing one.

Based on rough cost estimates from the area, I estimate $25k for septic and $5k for a well. Probably in the neighborhood of $200k for the the home plus upkeep on the structures and systems on the other side of the creek.

I am curious as to what your opinion would be on a vented ford such as this which is designed to be flooded. Culvert Case Studies > Rocky Creek

 

[MotorSeven]

$25K for a septic? Holeey Scmoleey mine was under $3K installed......wow

 

[dodge man]

I'm a land surveyor and work for a civil engineering company. Two important things to look at. One is what should the design be for in terms of a flood event. Can you live with it being flooded out once a year, once every ten years, once every 25 years? Just looking at the videos, it looks like some kind of culvert or culverts would be the route to go. It also looks like the road needs to be built up on either side of the creek so it doesn't flood either. My guess any design will have to allow for overtopping during a major flood event or the cost will get crazy. Like others have said, you need a civil engineer, and maybe or maybe not a structural engineer. A lot of firms do both.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

Structural engineer would only be good for the bridge. You need a civil period. Let me reiterate; a properly LICENSED PROFESSIONAL engineer in the state of Pennsylvania. Be prepared to hear what you don’t want to hear. We can speculate all you want about ideas and ways to get around issues. Your main hurdle is going to be the Pennsylvania department of environmental protection. (I can think of at least two permits off hand that will be needed) You’re also going to get tangled up with the Army Corps of Engineers. Unless you absolutely have your heart set on this and you have money and a lot of time to burn. I'd suggest leaving it as a hunting cabin/fun area and not a permanent residence.

If you are really serious about doing it, you need to look into what permits are required BEFORE you start spending money. They can be a huge headache and your problems only compound due to it being in a flowing water body. To lightly dismiss them is foolhardy at best.


On a less serious note, we will gladly help you spend your money you do or don't have and more! :thumbsup: I think almost every member on this forum loves a good challenge and enjoys figuring out creative solutions to unusual problems.

P.S. even if your "not in the stream" if you do ANY work inside the high water mark of the water (and maybe even the flood plain I suspect) you need multiple permits. The high-water mark is also not where you say it is. The agencies will surely tell you where it is.

 

[dave1949]

I wonder what you may do with the existing 1962 vehicle ford, that may be grandfathered for permit purposes?

How usable is the existing ford? Can you cross it with a regular car, or is a pickup needed? How many days in an average year would you guess it is unusable?

Judging from the replies, I would carefully consider if it is a problem that really HAS to have a solution. You can schedule deliveries like propane, keep a UPS/Fedex drop box and mailbox on the road side of the stream, etc. If the alternative entry to the house part of the property is passable by emergency vehicles, that may be good enough, or much cheaper to improve than tackling the stream.

 

[MotorSeven]

For many of you this is a big deal. For us, some winters we get as many as a dozen floods. Some are bad, some not so much. When the approach to the county bridge goes under water we just sit tight until the water recedes, usually about 4-5 hours. The cost involved in raising the approach road is cost prohibitive & the County will not do it. Remember you can't just raise the road, you also have to place many more culverts under said road to allow the water to escape or a big **** is the result and property up stream would flood(like my shop). A culvert bridge here only requires a permit, no blueprints or structural engineers.

Here is my video shot today:
[video]http://s271.beta.photobucket.com/user/motorseven/media/Farm/Jan2013Flood_zpsf93fe375.mp4.html[/video]

Ha, that was not a curse word, it is the thing that beavers build, or humans like the Hoover daaaam:laughing:

 

[RedNeckRacin]

For many of you this is a big deal. For us, some winters we get as many as a dozen floods. Some are bad, some not so much. When the approach to the county bridge goes under water we just sit tight until the water recedes, usually about 4-5 hours. The cost involved in raising the approach road is cost prohibitive & the County will not do it. Remember you can't just raise the road, you also have to place many more culverts under said road to allow the water to escape or a big **** is the result and property up stream would flood(like my shop). A culvert bridge here only requires a permit, no blueprints or structural engineers.

Here is my video shot today:
[video]http://s271.beta.photobucket.com/user/motorseven/media/Farm/Jan2013Flood_zpsf93fe375.mp4.html[/video]

No offese, but I very seriously doubt you can get away with just a single permit when you disturb a stream bottom. Usually you can't just deal with a state agency, the feds gotta get their cut to. In PA I gurantee there will be multiple permits involved from multiple agencies. You can certainly take your chances, but the penalities are pretty steep.

 

[MotorSeven]

It's only one permit here and it is the Feds via USDA.

 

[Localmotion]

Here is another brief video showing part of the driveway with a glimpse of the 'house'. You can get a better idea of the topography as well as what the ford is like. Driveway - YouTube

I don't know where to start with your bridge project - but it sure looks like a nice place to get stranded

 

[tlj87]

The existing ford is in good condition with a solid bottom and approaches. The water depth May-October is typically 3-5" and can be crossed by car. November-April varies more, perhaps 12" on average. Still passable with a truck, but I do not like to cross during freezing weather and then letting a vehicle sit. At one time (sometime prior to 1939, based on old aerial imagery) there was a dam or some other structure spanning the creek near the ford/bridge site. There are two railroad ties in the bank at two locations, one near the ford. As a general rule of thumb, if the water level is over the railroad tie, then we usually don't cross.

In terms of permitting, I have a call into my local conservation district office who, according their website, handles the permitting. They have been on site previously and organized the streambank planting project (which we'll be continuing this spring). A "GENERAL PERMIT BDWM-GP-7 MINOR ROAD CROSSINGS" is what seems to be required. This is through the DEP. Here is a link to the PA Code re: Permits for Bridges and Culverts. http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter105/s105.151.html