Broke my grapple ( Am I the only one?)

[crazyal]

I read "pushed" not bumped. Either way I wasn't there so the only people who could answer are the owners who broke them. Yes it should take some abuse but as I've said before if you buy a grapple that is designed to work on a 2000 lb 30hp cut and you put it on a 50hp+ tractor weighing more than 3 times that amount things are going to break if you make a mistake.

What I find wrong is the companies that sell these grapples don't want to make more models than they have to and give a wider range to the ones they sell.

 

[foggy1111]

Haven't been online for a while, but bought a Wildkat grapple a few weeks ago and had the exact same problem. I did as the OP did, pushing against a tree and not noticing the fact that the top of the grapple contacted the tree first.
After about 15 minutes of work, the grapple would not close anymore and I saw the bent bracket.
I sent pictures to Wildkat, asking them for input and they offered to send a new one and pick-up the damaged one right away, on their dime!
I agree that the top tube should be heavier, but "s..t" happens and in my opinion they made up for it with excellent customer service and fast turnaround time.
I will be much more careful and I won't be using it to push against trees, at least not with the grapple open. And when time permits, I plan on reinforcing the area of the cylinder mount, too.

Yep....today you need to take care of the consumer as word travels fast....especially due to the web and sites like this. But too many companies let the consumer be the engineering department by sending out untested designs. These are typically the low-cost, bargain brands. I dunno.....I can get sucked into the low prices as I am an occasional user....as are many of us. Still...it usually just takes a little more to get the job done correctly.

Did Wildcat send you a "new and improved" heavier tube.....or the same thing?

 

[IslandTractor]

Yep....today you need to take care of the consumer as word travels fast....especially due to the web and sites like this. But too many companies let the consumer be the engineering department by sending out untested designs. These are typically the low-cost, bargain brands. I dunno.....I can get sucked into the low prices as I am an occasional user....as are many of us. Still...it usually just takes a little more to get the job done correctly.

Trouble is that 1) the CUT market is relatively new (a couple of decades max), 2) grapples for CUTs is an even newer market that has really taken off only in the past 5-10 years, 3) the main market for grapples is skidsteers and those grapples are almost always too heavy and too wide for optimal CUT use. 4) "Light duty" grapples more geared towards non commercial CUT use is still such a small market overall that only a few relatively small shops produce them. 5) Those types of shops are probably run by hands on welders and sales/office types rather than with layers of engineers etc in between to design and test products.

The company that really does know grapples for CUTs is WRLong but despite an excellent product, their business model (dealers only, no direct sales) doesn't appeal to many TBN types. Anbo is another but they are so much more invested in heavy duty skid steer grapples that they don't have a full range of CUT appropriate styles. The rest of the companies producing grapples, as far as I can tell, are pretty small operations (I'd guess fewer than a dozen employees) and so there really is probably not adequate marketing research to determine needs nor adequate engineering input.

One of the early CUT grapple makers was John Millonzi who saw the market and developed the Millonai LD48 and LD60. He was a businessman not a welder but he knew the steel fabrication and construction equipment markets well and was a fast learner regarding CUTs. Sadly, just as his company was starting real volume production he became sick and died. The company died with him. Markham Welding picked up the slack but then changed hands and seemed to lose focus when renamed Gator. WildKat could have the entry level market nailed if they can improve the grapple (really I think the only issue is the tubing wall thickness) and keep the price in the $700-900 range as there really just isn't anything else to compete at that price range.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Not sure what you mean by a scab plate?

post number 13 shows what I was referring to as a scab plate sometimes called a doubler or reinforcing doubler plate. Basically rather than weld an attachment to a single point of thin steel, you use a larger section of thicker plate that is then welding completely around the supporting steel and then you weld the attachment piece to it. Look at the pin attachment point on most pieces of equipment like backhoes, FELs etc and see that they seldom well an attachment point directly to the parent metal. This spreads the load and reinforces the particular piece at that point. This is almost always done on things holding a liquid inside like pressure piping and tanks. You dont want the failure to cause a leak in the wall of the pipe or tank just as you dont want the backhoe boom to rip out a hole if the pin attachment point is compromised.

 

[jmc]

My two cents is I suspect you don't have to push a tree with the upper jaw to overstress that thin wall tubing. It's just that these incidents are the earliest failures and others could fail later in low cycle fatigue. That is lower stress but higher cycles, like repeated clamping, pushing a load of brush with the jaw fully open, or back dragging with the upper jaw open. These seem like reasonable uses for a grapple. And I would also reinforce the end brackets of the upper jaw, even though no one seems to have a problem at this point.

 

[IslandTractor]

My two cents is I suspect you don't have to push a tree with the upper jaw to overstress that thin wall tubing. It's just that these incidents are the earliest failures and others could fail later in low cycle fatigue. That is lower stress but higher cycles, like repeated clamping, pushing a load of brush with the jaw fully open, or back dragging with the upper jaw open. These seem like reasonable uses for a grapple. And I would also reinforce the end brackets of the upper jaw, even though no one seems to have a problem at this point.

Agree x2

 

[foggy1111]

To answer some questions:

To all current and future grapple owners:
When pushing over trees, make sure the grapple is closed! If not, there is a chance the teeth of the top claw will contact the trunk first, taking all the pressure from the loader and tractor forward movement and the eventually the top claw will be bend back.

Happy tractoring,
BigGuy

This may sidetrack this thread (sorry)......but I feel I need to play safety police here. Pushing over trees is one of the more dangerous things you can do with a tractor. Making a practice of it is asking for problems. :shocked: Read threads on this practice and threads on barberchair, etc. Then stop doing it....and dont advise others to push trees with a tractor!

OK....back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[swick1]

Agreed, but for saplings I wouldn't worry about it. One time I ran over a 4" tree with my 8000lb truck and it bent the tree over which lifted the front end off the ground. That could have easily flipped a tractor.

Be safe!

 

[CJONE]

I have used my grapple hard, pushed out alot of trees, 8" beach and quite a few 10+" pine trees. like anything else there are right ways and a bunch of wrong ways to do it. I am still very happy with the econo grapple on a 50hp tractor. A couple of triangle braces to the back web of the tube should stop any problems. Nothing is indestructable!! CJ

 

[BigGuy]

This may sidetrack this thread (sorry)......but I feel I need to play safety police here. Pushing over trees is one of the more dangerous things you can do with a tractor. Making a practice of it is asking for problems. :shocked: Read threads on this practice and threads on barberchair, etc. Then stop doing it....and dont advise others to push trees with a tractor!

OK....back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Thank you Foggy - after further research allow me to restate my last post:
I do NOT recommend anyone use a grapple or a tractor to push over trees! This is dangerous and can lead to serious injury!
BigGuy
(who will keep his mouth shut from now on)

 

[IslandTractor]

Thank you Foggy - after further research allow me to restate my last post:
I do NOT recommend anyone use a grapple or a tractor to push over trees! This is dangerous and can lead to serious injury!
BigGuy
(who will keep his mouth shut from now on)

Let's not be too schoolmarmish here. Many trees can be very safely pushed over with a tractor. Figure anything under 4-5" diameter trunk can be uprooted with a grapple and pushed over with not much question at all about safety. 6"-10" diameter trees are also possible to do safely so long as you observe reasonable precautions (eg not an old rotten tree with widowmakers dangling over your head, not a tree already leaning against or tangled with another tree etc). I've used a backhoe mounted ripper to cut roots on four sides and then either pushed with the ripper/bh or with larger trees used the grapple up at about 8-9 feet level to push on the tree. Again, this is with healthy trees and pushing into a clearing. Contrary to what any reasonable person would fear, the trees do not come crashing down suddenly. It takes a while to get them to tilt and until they reach about a 60 degree angle from vertical they do not gain speed or independence in their fall. Indeed I sometimes need to reposition to push further to get them to actually fall. That also means it will not go over without added pushing until you know very well where the tree is going within about a 45 degree arc. It is a slower fall than with chainsawing by far and you will see well ahead of time if the direction of fall is not going the way you intended. Another safety advantage compared to a chainsaw is that there is no risk of the fallen tree jumping back at you once the upper limbs hit the ground. The root ball basically is the pivot point of the fall and is in constant contact with the earth so that dangerous cut trunk is not bouncing around.

One other non safety related advantage is that you don't need to deal with the stump. It takes me four times as long to dig out a stump as it does to fell the tree whole and cart it away. Less damage to the surrounding soil too.

 

[k0ua]

Let's not be too schoolmarmish here. Many trees can be very safely pushed over with a tractor. Figure anything under 4-5" diameter trunk can be uprooted with a grapple and pushed over with not much question at all about safety. 6"-10" diameter trees are also possible to do safely so long as you observe reasonable precautions (eg not an old rotten tree with widowmakers dangling over your head, not a tree already leaning against or tangled with another tree etc). I've used a backhoe mounted ripper to cut roots on four sides and then either pushed with the ripper/bh or with larger trees used the grapple up at about 8-9 feet level to push on the tree. Again, this is with healthy trees and pushing into a clearing. Contrary to what any reasonable person would fear, the trees do not come crashing down suddenly. It takes a while to get them to tilt and until they reach about a 60 degree angle from vertical they do not gain speed or independence in their fall. Indeed I sometimes need to reposition to push further to get them to actually fall. That also means it will not go over without added pushing until you know very well where the tree is going within about a 45 degree arc. It is a slower fall than with chainsawing by far and you will see well ahead of time if the direction of fall is not going the way you intended. Another safety advantage compared to a chainsaw is that there is no risk of the fallen tree jumping back at you once the upper limbs hit the ground. The root ball basically is the pivot point of the fall and is in constant contact with the earth so that dangerous cut trunk is not bouncing around.

One other non safety related advantage is that you don't need to deal with the stump. It takes me four times as long to dig out a stump as it does to fell the tree whole and cart it away. Less damage to the surrounding soil too.

I would have to agree with Island.. I too have pushed over many trees. Yes it is dangerous. Never push over a dead tree, or a living tree with a lot of dead branches. They always land on your head. I have pushed over trees as large as 10 inches in diameter and 40 foot tall.. probably not the best idea. Smaller trees in the 20 to 25 foot height and less than 6 inches in diameter are far safer. There is SOME risk even with good trees. It is best to examine the tree closely before attacking. Some trees will break off and not push over the rootball. It is best to push a couple of days after a rain, so the top of the soil has good traction for your tires, but it is still wet down below for the roots. Be careful of large rootballs coming up under your tractor and possibly damaging the underside of your tractor. Look at the tree, if it leans push over in the direction it is leaning if at all posible.. DO NOT hit the tree with any velocity at all. Ease into the tree, and apply slow steady pressure. A hydro transmission is best for this. If the tree will not move and the tires are starting to slowy rotate, back off and try a slightly different angle. But when backing off, do not just back off. back off with slowy decreasing pressure. Again a hydro is best for this. In no way do you want to rock this tree in the slightest. Rocking makes the tree come back over your hood and your head, and can make limbs (that you did not see in your inspection) come down. They will fall on your hood or your head. So yes you can push over trees, and fairly safely if you pay strict attention. But it is safer to pull them over with 3 log chains put together end to end on the swinging drawbar. It does not matter if limbs fall out, there is no rootball to come up under your tractor, It does not matter which way it leans, or if it breaks off. Your technique does not matter. As long as you are far enough away so the tree cannot fall on you, all is well.


James K0UA

 

[caver]

dredging up an old thread

I was just on the phone with Wildcat (didn't get her name). She assured me they addressed the weakness and was aware of problems a couple years ago on this forum. She said the Dingo unit is just like the 48" with QA but they don't have a picture online of the 48" QA non dingo unit. Did that make sense?
She said I could have one for $800 plus shipping and minus the skid steer hose couplings.

 

[Herkypilot]

dredging up an old thread

I was just on the phone with Wildcat (didn't get her name). She assured me they addressed the weakness and was aware of problems a couple years ago on this forum. She said the Dingo unit is just like the 48" with QA but they don't have a picture online of the 48" QA non dingo unit. Did that make sense?
She said I could have one for $800 plus shipping and minus the skid steer hose couplings.

Well, not that old of a thread. Yes, as far as I can tell, they addressed the problem. I went to their shop to purchase my 66" grapple and brought pictures from the OP with me to show them. There was a mistake with the size of square tubing they used. Mine has been solid since I bought it about a year ago. I was just using it last week with good results. The only issue I had with Wildkat attachments is their SS quick attach contact points on the bottom pins fits too loose. I fixed it by welding 1/4" tabs on the bottom shelf brackets of the attachments to take up the slack. It fits tight now without issue.
Of note - the price keeps going up - but that's true for just about everything now isn't it?

 

[7879fordman]

Well, not that old of a thread. Yes, as far as I can tell, they addressed the problem. I went to their shop to purchase my 66" grapple and brought pictures from the OP with me to show them. There was a mistake with the size of square tubing they used. Mine has been solid since I bought it about a year ago. I was just using it last week with good results. The only issue I had with Wildkat attachments is their SS quick attach contact points on the bottom pins fits too loose. I fixed it by welding 1/4" tabs on the bottom shelf brackets of the attachments to take up the slack. It fits tight now without issue.
Of note - the price keeps going up - but that's true for just about everything now isn't it?

Ya my wildkat a bought needs shimmed also its a bit loose also . .

Got a good pic of what ya done to shim it .

Sent from my iPhone 5 using TractorByNet

 

[Herkypilot]

Ya my wildkat a bought needs shimmed also its a bit loose also . .

Got a good pic of what ya done to shim it .

Sent from my iPhone 5 using TractorByNet

This pic is about as close as I can find of what I did (obviously before welding). I just laid the piece of steel on the bracket, it's not even straight. I don't know why I didn't take more pictures that day... It shows the general idea I suppose.

 

[caver]

Well, not that old of a thread.

Pet peeve of mine when people dredge up an old thread and then others start responding likes it's a new thread. The comedy ensues.
And yes those prices have gone up.

 

[Herkypilot]

Pet peeve of mine when people dredge up an old thread and then others start responding likes it's a new thread. The comedy ensues.
And yes those prices have gone up.

I've witnessed a lot older threads (>10 years) revived from the dead - it's all relative...

 

[TomSeller]

Pet peeve of mine when people dredge up an old thread and then others start responding likes it's a new thread. The comedy ensues.
And yes those prices have gone up.

Then why did you dredge up this old thread? I does not bother me when someone does as long as it is the exact same subject.

 

[caver]

Should have said >dredge up without warning.