Bucket curl problem ?

[MrJimi]

My Case 1845C/skid steer bucket feature will go down before I curl it up, it was not like this and I did pick up a real heavy load, it acts like the fluid is leaking/bypassing somewhere before it goes to curl up mode. I'm thinking a O ring seal somewhere, the machine is a 1991 and I expect some little things to go wrong as we all know nothing last forever
J_J checked for leaks and did not see any and it does not loose excess fluid?
Thanks

 

[john_bud]

Your check valve is not checking.

You need to take apart the valve and clean out the little piece of goober that is holding it off the seat.

jb

 

[RonMar]

So are you saying that as you start to move the control to roll back/curl the bucket, the bucket actually starts to drop/dump before it starts to move in the correct direction? Does it hold a load while just setting? If this is the case, then I agree with John, it sounds as if the load check on that spool is not checking.

 

[MrJimi]

So are you saying that as you start to move the control to roll back/curl the bucket, the bucket actually starts to drop/dump before it starts to move in the correct direction? Does it hold a load while just setting? If this is the case, then I agree with John, it sounds as if the load check on that spool is not checking.

Yes, exactly and it is not safe at all to me and it seems to get a little better after a few uses or cycles?
I'm really hoping a check valve is all it is and not a 2 day job to get to it to replace or clean it

 

[RonMar]

I am not specifically familliar with your valve or system, but the load checks are usually in the vicinity of the working ports in the valve body itself. Not sure how hard your control valve is to access, but if you find where the hoses leave the valve(working ports) for the bucket curl cylinders, you may find hex head caps screwed into the valve body, one associated with each working port on the valve. Each of these caps will probably hold a check valve assembly. Depending on which way the valve is moved, one is opened mechanically by the spool to let fluid return from the cylinder, while the opposite one has to be opened by greater hydraulic fluid pressure in the valve than in the cylinder it is holding a load with.

I know on my prince valves I can have the load checks out in about 5 minutes with a socket and ratchet...

 

[MrJimi]

Well that sounds easier it's not a pop the hood open but I think I can manage that. Would I find a piece of foreign matter or a bad O ring? and if it's foreign matter, how would it get in there, also that may be the cause of my hissing sound that comes from that same area, I'm sure I have filters for that stuff, I hope and if it's O ring can a Ace hardware one work or does it have to be something special? I looked at surplus center and they have 38 dif kinds of check valves

 

[RonMar]

It should be all metal. It is not a standalone check valve, but a machined component that fits into a machined cavity internal to the control valve. It is hard to say how the junk got in there. It could be some contaminant that found it's way in thru a reservoir air vent, or it could be a shred of rubber from the inside of a hose that is starting to deteorate. You did say this started happening after carrying a real heavy load? You could have damaged a component in the load check and may require a part from the valve manufacturer. You won't know till you can get a peak at it.

 

[MrJimi]

Ron, the luck I have, there will be some serious damaged and the part won't be available or affordable, I will park it where it can stay for an extended length of time
and I just listed my pallet forks for sale on Craigslist and no way to load them now.
Will it hurt anything much as is or will it just get worse in time, I expect worse with time
and I do have some old, nasty looking hoses on my 1991 machine
you are a great help
thanks
Jim

 

[RonMar]

Ron, the luck I have, there will be some serious damaged and the part won't be available or affordable, I will park it where it can stay for an extended length of time
and I just listed my pallet forks for sale on Craigslist and no way to load them now.
Will it hurt anything much as is or will it just get worse in time, I expect worse with time
and I do have some old, nasty looking hoses on my 1991 machine
you are a great help
thanks
Jim

I don't know that it would hurt anything as long as you are aware of it when you operate. If the bucket will hold a load where you leave it curled, you just need to be aware that a slow curl movement of the control lever may give a heavy load time to dump the bucket a bit before valve pressure starts curling the bucket again. If you have a hose that is starting to break down on the inside, that may start showing other symptoms soon though
Good Luck.

 

[MrJimi]

And I wanted to change hoses after the paint job, I know how to use masking tape easier than I can do mechanical work, looks like change hose time is here and near before I have any more problems

 

[TrippleT]

MrJimi, I am wondering if you have a piston seal leak? That lets the fluid pass by the seals in the cylinders. If so, you would have to take the cylinder apart and put in new seals. The reason I wonder is that you said that you did have a large load on it. What ever it is I hope that it isn't hard or costly to fix.

Do you have a manual that shows the hydraulic system schematic? If so you might be able to determine what you have so far as seals internally.

At any rate good luck to you sir.

 

[MrJimi]

TrippleT I need all the luck I can get, I do hear a hissing sound in the valve area and we did not see any visible leaks but I think I Will be learning how to move my skid steer without fluid? = next thread ?
and the problem only happens when I curl bucket up and not down, it will go down some before it goes up and its real easy to tell with my ten and a half foot boom pole sticking out like It's on viagra or something, It's a 4 inch pipe, pictures in my gallery LOL
yes I have a manual, 22 miles away from me now

 

[john_bud]

MrJimi,

The load check is usually physically between the two outlets that go to the cylinder. Should be accessable externally. However, some are only accessed once the valve is taken apart. I'm 70-80% leaning to externally accessable as you probably have a mono-body valve and not a stack valve. The load check is a spring pressure device that keeps the valve from moving until there is enough pressure to overcome the load's weight. Usually a metal cylinder or a ball.

It could be some general gunk that was floating around, metal or a bit of hose even a chunk of o-ring. It's more a big deal to get started than it is to fix it.

The hissing sounds like the relief valve is partially open. May also be from a piece of gunk. The relief valve is exterally accessable and unscrews. It is nearly always located next to the "IN" port. If you take it apart, count the EXACT number of turns it takes as the system pressure is set with it. A smart person would double check with a gauge - a lucky person will just count and be close enough. As Clint said, "Are you feeling lucky?". Gunk is possibly from the same source flooding your system with a big load of gunk when a component failed. Sixteen years isn't that long for hoses and o-rings, but is about right for cylinder seals to start loosing their composure. They are both physically stressed from rubbing as well as from holding back the pressure. When the go, they GO. So, don't be surprised if you have a bad cylinder needing re-sealing (or all of them soon....)

I have had good luck with H&D out of Dallas. Fast shipping and low prices across the board. You know, some higher but mostly lower than competitors. They also have a very good downloadable (10 meg) catalog. I DL'ed it while on dial up - it's worth the wait. Has pictures of all the components!

H&D Distributors, Inc. Your Complete Source for Seals

You asked how the gunk got where it causes damage when you have filters and screens. Picture it. If a cylinder seal failed and lots of particles are in the oil in the cylinder, when you move the cylinder the oil goes out of the cylinder down the hose to the valve. If the check operates or the relief operates that dirty oil is right there. The filters are way far away and only catch gunk heading into the reservoir. You have clean filtered oil going INTO the valve, but dirty particle filled oil leaving it when a failure at a cylinder occurs.

jb

 

[MrJimi]

I've been thinking about this since I've had this problem and it will turn in to a big mess, I have to raise my bucket arms to get at this valve, my arms go up about 12 feet? my space where skid steer is normally has 8 foot head room, I have to clear out another spot in building where I have 16 feet of height to do this=yuk, lots of rearranging to do=yuk, this will take me sometime to do all of this and I am expecting to run in to more unexpected problems, we always do=yuk.
This sounds like taking a Iron pipe apart under house to fix a leak with lots of trips to the plumbing store. And this sounds like a problem I had with cholesterol back in 1995, my lines were getting clogged with junk food, that is all fixed now with a change in eating and some over the counter vitamins a big thanks to the VA
Keep all the great replies coming, it is 22 miles from here and I'm only there on weekends=yuk again
I will be ordering some hydraulic catalogs in the morning. One place I have ordered from is
Burden Sales Surplus Center - Hydraulics, Engines, Electrical and More
and I will be getting another from
H&D Distributors, Inc. Your Complete Source for Seals
and I hope they have a seal kits for my valves
And yes, I will post pictures with this fun project and they will be small files and links for my dial up buddies
The cholesterol part was easy, I hope this won't take as long
Jim

 

[RonMar]

If you have to have the loader arms in the air to access the valve, you MUST have a structure strong enough to support the loaders weight BEFOR you start messing with any fittings on the valve. You crack open the wrong fitting and that loader is going to come down all by itself in a rapid fashion with no way to control it... Be safe.

 

[MrJimi]

If you have to have the loader arms in the air to access the valve, you MUST have a structure strong enough to support the loaders weight BEFORE you start messing with any fittings on the valve. You crack open the wrong fitting and that loader is going to come down all by itself in a rapid fashion with no way to control it... Be safe.

My Case has a locking bar to hold up the arms from the factory, it's a heavy piece of steel that just swings down to work on it kinda like the opposite of a hood rod and my overhead is all trusses, 16 feet up. I may have some pictures in my gallery
and I will be sure to relieve all pressure before I do anything
Thanks for the heads up

 

[MrJimi]

I've been thinking and I probably did this when I over stressed it and a piece of thrash got stuck in the valve. I wonder if I were to stress it again if it would open up and let it go through to the filter? It makes sense to me but I don't know anything about hydraulics
It does sound real easy
what are your thoughts

 

[TrippleT]

MrJimi, I reread some of your posts and it does seem like someway there is fluid by-passing.
I would check it where the noise is. However, that is no guarantee that it will be right there. Noises can travel. Again good luck and DO be careful there.

 

[MrJimi]

The hissing sound I hear comes from the general area where the valve is?
I will try to stress it this weekend and see what happens
wish me luck, I'm hoping it will open valve and pass it, that sounded funny
The back tires of my 6,500 pound machine came off ground and it has a 3,500 tipping load and a 1,750 lift
strong unit

 

[MrJimi]

Well, that idea did not work at all, I did receive my Surpluscenter.com catalog and now I can measure hoses to be replaced and I also want to get an in-line pressure gage like J_J installed on his Power Trac
I still have to clear a big area in my shop for this