Building a stick frame house in the woods in 90 days

[pacerron]

Installing T&G ceilings is beyond old guys with bi-focals and stiff necks, but can you imagine anyone sanding an entire wood ceiling that size holding a heavy belt sander over
over their head and doing a decent job. It would probably have more warbles and blotchy finish absorption than it will now.
Anyone in the business or any homeowner would get a much better result, especially if the back side is going to be used as it is here, to have in shop or take to a cabinet shop who does, a big belt sander that works like a thickness planer. They do a great job of taking out any warbles, removing the millwax, and maintaining a constant thickness.
The boards still need to be sorted, end widths and grain matched with any cupping cut out but the end result is so much better and really time saving over trying to do a poor job after it is hanging overhead with a portable sander. Same goes for the finish, so much smoother with better coverage in the tongue and groove area if it is spayed on prior to hanging and just touched up afterwards.

Peter,
Is the contractor making the boys follow his statement to you that the butts will be cut at a 15 degree angle and overlapped, or are they just cutting them square and butting them together? Take pictures of the end of the ones installed that are waiting another to be joined to it.
And, remember the cautions about final payment.
Ron

 

[tractorshopper]

Peter, nothing wrong with asking your builder for perfection with the fit/finish install. The fact is you are paying for the materials and craftsmanship of professionals who do this for a living much like you do your expertise in your day job. If it's not satisfactory for you, then it should not be accepted. I know we're nitpicking for you on the forum, but you see it too because you're savvy enough to take the pictures and ask.

I worked construction for a while when I was young and was around it most of my early life. Best builder I worked for came out to the job one day and didn't like how the foreman and his helper framed the fireplace chimney box because it wasn't identical to the plan. The foreman said he'd framed them this way for 20 years and was time tested (and this was a good hard working knowledgable foreman). The builder said he didn't care, tear it down and start over before his customer comes by to see today's work. Cost the builder time and money, but he wouldn't settle for less than perfection or exactly to plan that was agreed to with the customer. I can say structurally, it was fine to begin with, but wasn't what was in the plan exactly and that was enough. I can tell you he was one of the most successful in the area until the day he retired. Word of mouth is a powerful thing.

As I said before I think the bones of this house are very well done and am impressed. His finishers need to be dedicated trim carpenters with a different mentality.

 

[jdonovan]

. Best builder I worked for came out to the job one day and didn't like how the foreman and his helper framed the fireplace chimney box because it wasn't identical to the plan. The foreman said he'd framed them this way for 20 years and was time tested (and this was a good hard working knowledgable foreman). The builder said he didn't care, tear it down and start over before his customer comes by to see today's work.

But on the opposite side, just blindly following the plan, even when you know its a bad plan isn't a good way to work either...

 

[mkane09]

Sunshine is powerful stuff, whether it is in politics or business. My message to the builder would be "Don't build something you wouldn't feel comfortable being displayed to the public" if he complained about your sharing the build on the internet.

That is generous because it ignores/sidesteps the question of what he would fix without your scrutiny and prodding? Would he collect payment and walk away?

We have some strange attitudes toward residential construction given that a home is often the most expensive product we will ever buy. Poor Peter is (benefiting? ) from the collective experience of many people. And yes, we can nitpick from our armchairs. But suppose that were not the case? Shouldn't Peter or anyone else have an expectation of receiving a quality product when building a home--even if they don't personally know what makes a home a quality product?

It's a new world for many businesses nowadays, where your work is not only scrutinized by the buyer, but also by the buyers friends, relatives, neighbors or anyone else with an Internet connection. Don't complain because the poor work you used to do could be covered up and snuck by only a pair or two of eyes, but now is critiqued by hundreds or thousands of eyes. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen. The problems here aren't related to $/sq. ft.; they're related to doing your best work with the materials on hand. And windows and doors with gaps big enough for field mice to walk thru are no one's "best work". Yeah, I think there have been plenty of comments during this build which are more "what I think looks better" as opposed to building to a quality standard, but this trim work is just not good. Period. I need a cup of coffee...


mkane09

 

[J F]

Spend an evening cooking dinner and watching a dvd and look what I miss. :laughing: As far as sanding the t&g, I agree to sand it ALL or it can take the finish differently (not always, it depends on how well sanded it was from the millwork co, and also how long it has sat around collecting its own sheen).

And yes, I actually sand ALL of it before install (much easier on the back ). This probably took a couple of hours with some tunes in the hearing protection, and this includes sanding the "bevels" as well (not just the flat surface).

Pre-installation sanding in shop...



I try to get the first coat of stain applied before installation, that way the tongue & grooves get a coat and you don't end up with any "missed" spots after installation. (sorry, pic's a bit "bright")



Ready for top coats and sheetrock paint...



This installation didn't have and midway joints to deal with, so didn't have to worry about any butt-joint sanding. (that just sounds funny :laughing

As far as telling your builder they're being critiqued on a web forum...my vote is no. They'll get the idea when you show some printed pics, etc., but that's not something I would do. But that's just me.

 

[J F]

I agree that it doesn't make sense to redo work that should have been done right the first time. The builder has agreed that the sliding doors with the bow in them will need to come back out and be re-installed properly, which means removing the trim on the outside, and maybe some of the siding as well.

I'm glad to hear this. This so far has been the thing that most bothered me, that I would want done before proceeding. As mentioned, a lot of the trim stuff is going to "disappear" when paint is done, not all, but a LOT of it will. (taking for granted they have good painters,

You may have a huge punch-list and/or warranty work for the builder to take care of. Obviously the less, the better, for both you and the builder. (hopefully the builder feels this way as well)

I know Pete's builder has a lot on his plate, and that can sometimes translate into details slipping through the cracks, but at least he (Pete) has 100/1000 sets of extra eyes "helping" him.

 

[jinman]

Jay, I've heard you and others refer to 'staining' the T&G. I'm pretty sure Pete posted that the T&G gets clear coat. I think clear coating is far more forgiving than stain. Just a point that may have been overlooked. . . .

I think there is an extreme shortage of finish quality craftsmen in the building industry. For example, I think the guy who did the trim work in my house was really a good framer who had such a bad personality that he couldn't get along with other workers. He didn't show up until the framers were gone and left before any of the floor covering and tile was done. He impressed me as continually having a chip on his shoulder. His 'holier-than-thou' attitude clearly extended to the homeowner. I butted heads with him several times and he found out that stubbornness is a prized trait in my family. Anyhow, it seems that true finish carpenters are rare and tend to have their own businesses, not working for a builder. Sound familiar Jay?

Also, I've been shocked and appalled at the lack of ability of framers to put in doors properly. In the old days, carpenters built their own door frames and most were far superior to many of the pre-framed door inserts I've seen. For some reason, the current crop of builders seem to lack the ability to put in a pre-hung door and keep it square and true. The only thing worse than their door installation skills is the methods some choose to use to correct a problem. They will absolutely destroy door hinges and frame facings in an attempt to force the door to fit or not drag. I caught the re-modeler for my bathroom project using a hammer on my expensive door latch hardware. Luckily, he was so careless that he had chosen the wrong striker plate supplied with the set. I tossed the plate he had smashed and dinged with his hammer into the trash and replaced it with the correct striker plate after he left for the day. This was the same guy I caught using deck screws in my door hinges. The green painted deck screws really looked nice with my brass hinges.

 

[J F]

:thumbsup:

Jay, I've heard you and others refer to 'staining' the T&G. I'm pretty sure Pete posted that the T&G gets clear coat. I think clear coating is far more forgiving than stain. Just a point that may have been overlooked. . . .

I agree, much more forgiving. I just added my process for anyone considering the stain option, Jim :thumbsup:

I think there is an extreme shortage of finish quality craftsmen in the building industry. For example, I think the guy who did the trim work in my house was really a good framer who had such a bad personality that he couldn't get along with other workers. He didn't show up until the framers were gone and left before any of the floor covering and tile was done. He impressed me as continually having a chip on his shoulder. His 'holier-than-thou' attitude clearly extended to the homeowner. I butted heads with him several times and he found out that stubbornness is a prized trait in my family. Anyhow, it seems that true finish carpenters are rare and tend to have their own businesses, not working for a builder. Sound familiar Jay?

:laughing: Yep. I agree with shortage of good quality guys in the industry. That has been driven by many factors, the largest ones I see are the a) Mind-set of most kids being driven towards a hands-off career b) The lack of people willing to pay for real quality work - mostly h/o's (who gc's/builders have to compete to land as clients).

But this same thing has driven most things in our country/civilization for quite some time. It just takes a major amount of work to sell real good work, believe it or not. Everyone wants the quality...few want to pay for it. I'm pretty sure we all know that.:confused2: It's much more fun to biotch&moan after the a cheap buy. (and please, don't anyone think I'm speaking of Peter/this thread, as I definitely am NOT>

It will be interesting to see if 20-50 years from now, if real "craftsmen" have more monetary value, or if it just keeps on the decline. When we have kids I'm not sure if I'd want them to pursue the trades....maybe after they get their accounting degree. :laughing: Oh well, the same lament has been knocked around for plenty of other industries, it's just the nature of the beast. We all have our own microscope we view the world through.

On the reverse side, I've seen plenty of well-paid hack work...it seems like for a consumer it can be such a coin toss, so why not just go with the cheapest? :confused2:

Also, I've been shocked and appalled at the lack of ability of framers to put in doors properly. In the old days, carpenters built their own door frames and most were far superior to many of the pre-framed door inserts I've seen. For some reason, the current crop of builders seem to lack the ability to put in a pre-hung door and keep it square and true. The only thing worse than their door installation skills is the methods some choose to use to correct a problem. They will absolutely destroy door hinges and frame facings in an attempt to force the door to fit or not drag. I caught the re-modeler for my bathroom project using a hammer on my expensive door latch hardware. Luckily, he was so careless that he had chosen the wrong striker plate supplied with the set. I tossed the plate he had smashed and dinged with his hammer into the trash and replaced it with the correct striker plate after he left for the day. This was the same guy I caught using deck screws in my door hinges. The green painted deck screws really looked nice with my brass hinges.

That's just wrong. I'll bet that's just what he had on hand, and by god, he wasn't going to spend any minutes getting the correct ones. :laughing: Sheesh, it never ends, does it?

 

[sixdogs]

We never sanded our Oregon cedar wood ceiling. Never finished it either and it gave a nice non-reflective softness to the room.

 

[J F]

Any "joints" (no, not that kind)? Usually required with runs over 14' or 16' depending on material, shorter if said material is in "shorter" supply. That will dictate "some" sanding, usually.

If you have, and are willing to spend the $$, you can get all sorts of stuff out of the "norm". Of course, it's beyond the financial resources of us mere mortals in a lot of cases, though.