Egon
Epic Contributor
really depends on the type of sand.
Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Building up Pad site for Barn
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Builder
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( " Okay, I've decided the first real project for my new tractor will be leveling and building up a Pad site for my 30' x 40' metal barn.
The front is level and it slopes off about 2' to the back of where the barn will sit.
I've been quoted $1,800 to have it done by a professional but this will get me some loader time and help me justify the expense of the tractor to myself and my wife.
The first thing I need to decide is if I should just have fill dirt brought in or if I should move the dirt over from somewhere else.
It will take about 40 yards of fill the way I calculated it. The first 10' is flat then it slopes down 2' over the last 30'. 30' X 30' X 1' average fill = 25 cubic yards. I guess I need to have it slope down away from the building so assuming it slopes on a 4 to 1 ratio I need another 10 yards or so for that. (6.66 on the back and 3.33 on the sides) Plus I figure another 5 yards at least for extra.
I have a local gravel pit that has some stuff they call cement waste that I think would make excellent fill. They have a deal with the local concrete places to come and clean up their dump sites when the truck comes back from a job with leftover cement or they just wash them out. They screen it and it is really nice material and packs excellent with lots of fines and a little bit of gravel in it. It is kind of expensive though at $200 per semi load delivered vs. about $100 delivered for just regular topsoil. They said a load would be about 20 yards.
I really don't have anywhere close that I want to dig out to use my own fill. I have a pit about 100 yards from the site that I want to put the building but I would have to dig a road up out of that part of the pit because the road going into the pit would be about 300 yards. That would be quite a haul one bucket at a time with my FEL. I don't have a dump trailer or a dump truck to move the dirt with.
To put it down I've been told to spread 6" deep and drive over it with a bucket full of material back and forth to pack it in. Then spread 6" more etc. Does that sound right? How many times do you need to pack each layer and should it be watered down between packing?
The barn will have a 4" cement slab but the pad needs to be built up to level to before we put the slab down.
I think that should get things started. I appreciate all input and suggestions.
Thanks, Nathan)</font>
hey man,
I build these types of structures for a living. I'm no engineer, but I know what has worked for me over the last 20 years.
One thing is, I'm not sure if you're slab on grade or slab on footings.
I'm not sure of the type of fill material you speak of, but we have 2 types that fit your description: One is called "quarry waste", which is basically what the quarry digs up that's not the stone they're selling. Around here, it's limestone, sand, dirt, etc., all mixed together. It's like the material they dig up other than the product they sell. I only use that for "junk fill".
The other is called "crushed concrete". It's large chunks of dug-up 'crete & left over 'crete run through a processor. It comes out the other end looking similar to "modified" (3/4" limestone with screenings).
I use crushed concrete for a lot of things. It makes nice fill. When it gets wet, it almost reconstitutes itself back to concrete. I made a temporarty driveway once that packed so hard, we had a tough time digging it up! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Here's what you do. Get yourself some crushed concrete and rent a jumping jack. Spread lifts of crushed concrete and run over it with the jumping jack- hammer out all the soft pockets. You'll be driving over it with the tractor, too, so that'll help compact it. Wet it down with a garden hose if you can to help settle it down.
I've been using the crushed for 15 years and never had a cracked slab, not even a slight crack. $200/load ain't bad. I think i pay ~$8-9/ton, so that's ~$200/load, too.
I also set 1/2" or 5/8" bar in a 3' x 3' grid on chairs and use fibre crete. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If there's any way you can do some perimeter footings, it'll help out compared to a slab on grade.
Always works for me, but what do i know. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The front is level and it slopes off about 2' to the back of where the barn will sit.
I've been quoted $1,800 to have it done by a professional but this will get me some loader time and help me justify the expense of the tractor to myself and my wife.
The first thing I need to decide is if I should just have fill dirt brought in or if I should move the dirt over from somewhere else.
It will take about 40 yards of fill the way I calculated it. The first 10' is flat then it slopes down 2' over the last 30'. 30' X 30' X 1' average fill = 25 cubic yards. I guess I need to have it slope down away from the building so assuming it slopes on a 4 to 1 ratio I need another 10 yards or so for that. (6.66 on the back and 3.33 on the sides) Plus I figure another 5 yards at least for extra.
I have a local gravel pit that has some stuff they call cement waste that I think would make excellent fill. They have a deal with the local concrete places to come and clean up their dump sites when the truck comes back from a job with leftover cement or they just wash them out. They screen it and it is really nice material and packs excellent with lots of fines and a little bit of gravel in it. It is kind of expensive though at $200 per semi load delivered vs. about $100 delivered for just regular topsoil. They said a load would be about 20 yards.
I really don't have anywhere close that I want to dig out to use my own fill. I have a pit about 100 yards from the site that I want to put the building but I would have to dig a road up out of that part of the pit because the road going into the pit would be about 300 yards. That would be quite a haul one bucket at a time with my FEL. I don't have a dump trailer or a dump truck to move the dirt with.
To put it down I've been told to spread 6" deep and drive over it with a bucket full of material back and forth to pack it in. Then spread 6" more etc. Does that sound right? How many times do you need to pack each layer and should it be watered down between packing?
The barn will have a 4" cement slab but the pad needs to be built up to level to before we put the slab down.
I think that should get things started. I appreciate all input and suggestions.
Thanks, Nathan)</font>
hey man,
I build these types of structures for a living. I'm no engineer, but I know what has worked for me over the last 20 years.
One thing is, I'm not sure if you're slab on grade or slab on footings.
I'm not sure of the type of fill material you speak of, but we have 2 types that fit your description: One is called "quarry waste", which is basically what the quarry digs up that's not the stone they're selling. Around here, it's limestone, sand, dirt, etc., all mixed together. It's like the material they dig up other than the product they sell. I only use that for "junk fill".
The other is called "crushed concrete". It's large chunks of dug-up 'crete & left over 'crete run through a processor. It comes out the other end looking similar to "modified" (3/4" limestone with screenings).
I use crushed concrete for a lot of things. It makes nice fill. When it gets wet, it almost reconstitutes itself back to concrete. I made a temporarty driveway once that packed so hard, we had a tough time digging it up! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Here's what you do. Get yourself some crushed concrete and rent a jumping jack. Spread lifts of crushed concrete and run over it with the jumping jack- hammer out all the soft pockets. You'll be driving over it with the tractor, too, so that'll help compact it. Wet it down with a garden hose if you can to help settle it down.
I've been using the crushed for 15 years and never had a cracked slab, not even a slight crack. $200/load ain't bad. I think i pay ~$8-9/ton, so that's ~$200/load, too.
I also set 1/2" or 5/8" bar in a 3' x 3' grid on chairs and use fibre crete. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If there's any way you can do some perimeter footings, it'll help out compared to a slab on grade.
Always works for me, but what do i know. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jagmandave
Veteran Member
Is that the same as "Limestone dust" or "concrete dust"?
Around here they use concrete dust, which just looks like really fine concrete and sand and dust, when wet it packs solid. We can get it delivered wet around here, so all you have to do is spread it and it's ready.............
and it's real cheap too, about all they charge you is the delivery..........
Around here they use concrete dust, which just looks like really fine concrete and sand and dust, when wet it packs solid. We can get it delivered wet around here, so all you have to do is spread it and it's ready.............
and it's real cheap too, about all they charge you is the delivery..........
Builder
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...prolly depends on the jaws in the concrete crusher. The stuff I get looks like 3/4"-1.5" nuggets of broken 'crete mixed with crete dust. I even bring them broken concrete with rebar in it. Bang! goes right in the processor, comes out the other side ready to use as fill.
Okay, I'm going to try this. I signed the contract for the building yesterday and talked with the guy who is going to bring the fill this morning. The cement waste wasn't available so I'm going to go with 2 types of fill.
The first will be a mix of dirt and small gravel. He is going to deliver 2 dump truck loads of it (8 yards). Then I'm going to spread them and pack them then water them in.
Questions - How much water do I put on there? Do I make a big muddy mess out of it or just a good soaking that will dry up in a day or so?
After I get the first 2 loads of fill spread he is going to bring me 2 more loads of just regular topsoil. I'm going to spread and pack these and water them down then repeat with 2 more loads, then pack it down one more time and if I need it I can get 1 more load of topsoil and pack it down then.
The thickest part of the fill will be 22". Do I need to do 4 layers of leveling and packing or 3?
From talking with the guy who is going to be building the barn, typically he doesn't see people use the walk behind packers here. They just pack it down with the tractor they are spreading it with. I haven't checked on the price of renting one.
Thanks for the input so far.
Nathan
The first will be a mix of dirt and small gravel. He is going to deliver 2 dump truck loads of it (8 yards). Then I'm going to spread them and pack them then water them in.
Questions - How much water do I put on there? Do I make a big muddy mess out of it or just a good soaking that will dry up in a day or so?
After I get the first 2 loads of fill spread he is going to bring me 2 more loads of just regular topsoil. I'm going to spread and pack these and water them down then repeat with 2 more loads, then pack it down one more time and if I need it I can get 1 more load of topsoil and pack it down then.
The thickest part of the fill will be 22". Do I need to do 4 layers of leveling and packing or 3?
From talking with the guy who is going to be building the barn, typically he doesn't see people use the walk behind packers here. They just pack it down with the tractor they are spreading it with. I haven't checked on the price of renting one.
Thanks for the input so far.
Nathan
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
HMMM,
Why not use sand? Was it not available in your area, or is the dirt cheaper?
I'd prefer clean dirt compared to dirt with rock in it, but the rock shouldn't cause any problems if it's small enough for a base.
The top soil is a HUGE mistake!! Did you mis-name it? Could it be clean fill and not topsoil? Topsoils is the worse material you can use because it's full or organic material that will continue to break down and decompose over many years. It's impossible to get compaction with it and your foundation will have voids in it over time.
The fact that your contractor recomended it has me worried right from the beginning. This is a huge red flag!!!
Idealy, you want your pad to be of one material built up in lifts depending on the material and tools available. Sandwiching different materials makes it harder, if not impossilble for them to bind to each other.
Here's what you should be doing. Clear OFF the topsoil where you barn is going. Build up the pad with clean fill material. Again, sand is the best, but clay works too.
Have the dump truck dump the dirt outside of the pad. If it's super dry and needs water, mix it outside the pad. Ideally, you want the material to have enough moisture in it to hold together tight when you squeeze it in your hand. You can also tell when you get it right by the way it cuts with your bucket. The material will compact into solid material and you will create what looks like a smoot edge on it. It aint rocket science, but you might have to experiment with it some.
Too much water is VERY, VERY BAD!!!!!
First, it will beging to "pump" when it gets saturated. This means it turns to jello and has absolutley no strength to it.
Never, never, never put muddy material into your pad!!!
It's very rare around here to have to add water to fill material, but maybe your area is different. Jobs I did in California just about always required it.
The other reason not to put too much water into your pad is moisture takes away from the strength of your concrete. The dryer the pour, the stronger it will be. You can loose as much as 20 percent of the strength in your pad from too much water in the mix.
This is the main reason to put a vapor barrier down when pouring a pad. We don't do it in my area because the clay doesn't transfer much water into the mix when poured, but up north and other areas, they seem to do it all the time.
Spread the fill material with your bucket. Dump and spread it out real thin. Do this with every load and drive over it as much as possible. This will take a forever, but in the end, it will give you a solid pad.
Do not rush this and try to dump allot of material in one place and expect to spread it out later on. It's impossible to get compaction at the bottom of a pile, and spreading it out will usually leave high and low spots. The highs are the areas of future problems.
Have you talked to the cement contractor? Rarely does the builder also do the pouring. These are tow different guys, and I think one is giving you bad advice. The cement guy will know all about pads and what you need to do, where the builder wont'. Be careful of guys who do one thing well, but give bad advice on other things. They don't know how to admit they don't know something and who knows what else he's said he can do when he can't.
A friend had a shop built for his buisiness. It all went great until the builder started framing out the offices. He can build huge metal buildings, but didn't have a clue on framing with wood. He did such a bad job at the end of the project that he's now being sued by my friend. If he'd just done what he knew how to do, and had a wood framer come in to finish off the offices, he's have received final payment, had a loyal customer who would have recomended him for other jobs, and not be in the middle of a court case today.
Good luck with your building and please post pics. If just one of us catch soemthing that might lead to problems down the line, it would be worth the effort of posting them.
Eddie
Why not use sand? Was it not available in your area, or is the dirt cheaper?
I'd prefer clean dirt compared to dirt with rock in it, but the rock shouldn't cause any problems if it's small enough for a base.
The top soil is a HUGE mistake!! Did you mis-name it? Could it be clean fill and not topsoil? Topsoils is the worse material you can use because it's full or organic material that will continue to break down and decompose over many years. It's impossible to get compaction with it and your foundation will have voids in it over time.
The fact that your contractor recomended it has me worried right from the beginning. This is a huge red flag!!!
Idealy, you want your pad to be of one material built up in lifts depending on the material and tools available. Sandwiching different materials makes it harder, if not impossilble for them to bind to each other.
Here's what you should be doing. Clear OFF the topsoil where you barn is going. Build up the pad with clean fill material. Again, sand is the best, but clay works too.
Have the dump truck dump the dirt outside of the pad. If it's super dry and needs water, mix it outside the pad. Ideally, you want the material to have enough moisture in it to hold together tight when you squeeze it in your hand. You can also tell when you get it right by the way it cuts with your bucket. The material will compact into solid material and you will create what looks like a smoot edge on it. It aint rocket science, but you might have to experiment with it some.
Too much water is VERY, VERY BAD!!!!!
First, it will beging to "pump" when it gets saturated. This means it turns to jello and has absolutley no strength to it.
Never, never, never put muddy material into your pad!!!
It's very rare around here to have to add water to fill material, but maybe your area is different. Jobs I did in California just about always required it.
The other reason not to put too much water into your pad is moisture takes away from the strength of your concrete. The dryer the pour, the stronger it will be. You can loose as much as 20 percent of the strength in your pad from too much water in the mix.
This is the main reason to put a vapor barrier down when pouring a pad. We don't do it in my area because the clay doesn't transfer much water into the mix when poured, but up north and other areas, they seem to do it all the time.
Spread the fill material with your bucket. Dump and spread it out real thin. Do this with every load and drive over it as much as possible. This will take a forever, but in the end, it will give you a solid pad.
Do not rush this and try to dump allot of material in one place and expect to spread it out later on. It's impossible to get compaction at the bottom of a pile, and spreading it out will usually leave high and low spots. The highs are the areas of future problems.
Have you talked to the cement contractor? Rarely does the builder also do the pouring. These are tow different guys, and I think one is giving you bad advice. The cement guy will know all about pads and what you need to do, where the builder wont'. Be careful of guys who do one thing well, but give bad advice on other things. They don't know how to admit they don't know something and who knows what else he's said he can do when he can't.
A friend had a shop built for his buisiness. It all went great until the builder started framing out the offices. He can build huge metal buildings, but didn't have a clue on framing with wood. He did such a bad job at the end of the project that he's now being sued by my friend. If he'd just done what he knew how to do, and had a wood framer come in to finish off the offices, he's have received final payment, had a loyal customer who would have recomended him for other jobs, and not be in the middle of a court case today.
Good luck with your building and please post pics. If just one of us catch soemthing that might lead to problems down the line, it would be worth the effort of posting them.
Eddie
Thanks for the quick response.
I've gotten severely conflicting advice on sand. Some people are recommending it but some are saying whatever you use for fill, don't use sand. The people I've talked to around here say flat out - don't use it. They say that you can't get it stable, that it will move on you. This makes sense to me and it would maybe work as strictly a fill material, but I'm building up a pad site that the slab will be poured on top of. If the pad shifts or moves that would be very bad.
I'm probably using bad terminology when I say topsoil I guess. When I say topsoil, I'm talking about dirt. Pure dirt. The guy is getting it from a big pile of dirt about 15' tall about 3 miles from my house. There are some weeds growing on some of it but it's not full of organics.
I should probably post some pictures of where I will be puting the slab. Not much in the way of organics on my topsoil either! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif I think I will be better off leaving the nice firm topsoil where it is and packing on top of it than clearing it off and having to repack it.
I haven't talked with the guy that will be doing the cement. I will check with another guy who does cement for a living here locally and see if I can get some input from him.
Thanks again for the input. I'm trying to do the right thing.
Nathan
I've gotten severely conflicting advice on sand. Some people are recommending it but some are saying whatever you use for fill, don't use sand. The people I've talked to around here say flat out - don't use it. They say that you can't get it stable, that it will move on you. This makes sense to me and it would maybe work as strictly a fill material, but I'm building up a pad site that the slab will be poured on top of. If the pad shifts or moves that would be very bad.
I'm probably using bad terminology when I say topsoil I guess. When I say topsoil, I'm talking about dirt. Pure dirt. The guy is getting it from a big pile of dirt about 15' tall about 3 miles from my house. There are some weeds growing on some of it but it's not full of organics.
I should probably post some pictures of where I will be puting the slab. Not much in the way of organics on my topsoil either! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif I think I will be better off leaving the nice firm topsoil where it is and packing on top of it than clearing it off and having to repack it.
I haven't talked with the guy that will be doing the cement. I will check with another guy who does cement for a living here locally and see if I can get some input from him.
Thanks again for the input. I'm trying to do the right thing.
Nathan
Okay, Just got off the phone with a local cement contractor that I've used in the past and was very happy with. Only reason that I'm not using him for this job is that the building contractor has his own cement guy and didn't want to use another guy. My friend that had a building built by the same contractor was really happy with the building overall and also really happy with the cement work so I'm not that concerned with him using his own cement guy.
The guy that I talked with pretty much agreed with the method that I lined out above. He said to go ahead and rent a walk behind compactor and use it along with the tractor between the layers. I was thinking about skipping that part but he said the vibration of the packer will help pack things as much as having a 5,000lb tractor driving on it will. He also agreed with not removing the topsoil that is there now but just putting the fill and building up the pad on top of it. Also he recommended building the pad about 2' bigger before sloping it down. He is a really nice guy and said that if I wanted him to, that he would stop by and take a look and see if he had any suggestions. I will take him up on it if I start second guessing myself on anything.
We got some rain last week so the fill should be nice and moist. I will add water if I need to but it should pack down nicely.
I'll post pictures as I go.
Thanks again for the input.
The guy that I talked with pretty much agreed with the method that I lined out above. He said to go ahead and rent a walk behind compactor and use it along with the tractor between the layers. I was thinking about skipping that part but he said the vibration of the packer will help pack things as much as having a 5,000lb tractor driving on it will. He also agreed with not removing the topsoil that is there now but just putting the fill and building up the pad on top of it. Also he recommended building the pad about 2' bigger before sloping it down. He is a really nice guy and said that if I wanted him to, that he would stop by and take a look and see if he had any suggestions. I will take him up on it if I start second guessing myself on anything.
We got some rain last week so the fill should be nice and moist. I will add water if I need to but it should pack down nicely.
I'll post pictures as I go.
Thanks again for the input.
Just got off the phone with the local rental place. I can rent a Jumping Jack on Friday afternoon and return it by Monday morning at 8 am for $105. It sounds like a lot of work though!
Maybe I can get someone to run the jumping jack while I lounge around on the tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
One other thought process that I've gone through on the project is that on the perimeter of the pad site I for sure want dirt so that I can plant grass and help keep it from eroding. If I used 100% sand or 100% cement waste this wouldn't work.
Maybe I can get someone to run the jumping jack while I lounge around on the tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
One other thought process that I've gone through on the project is that on the perimeter of the pad site I for sure want dirt so that I can plant grass and help keep it from eroding. If I used 100% sand or 100% cement waste this wouldn't work.
Builder
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( HMMM,
Why not use sand? Was it not available in your area, or is the dirt cheaper?
I'd prefer clean dirt compared to dirt with rock in it, but the rock shouldn't cause any problems if it's small enough for a base.
The top soil is a HUGE mistake!! Did you mis-name it? Could it be clean fill and not topsoil? Topsoils is the worse material you can use because it's full or organic material that will continue to break down and decompose over many years. It's impossible to get compaction with it and your foundation will have voids in it over time.
The fact that your contractor recomended it has me worried right from the beginning. This is a huge red flag!!!
Idealy, you want your pad to be of one material built up in lifts depending on the material and tools available. Sandwiching different materials makes it harder, if not impossilble for them to bind to each other.
Here's what you should be doing. Clear OFF the topsoil where you barn is going. Build up the pad with clean fill material. Again, sand is the best, but clay works too.
Have the dump truck dump the dirt outside of the pad. If it's super dry and needs water, mix it outside the pad. Ideally, you want the material to have enough moisture in it to hold together tight when you squeeze it in your hand. You can also tell when you get it right by the way it cuts with your bucket. The material will compact into solid material and you will create what looks like a smoot edge on it. It aint rocket science, but you might have to experiment with it some.
Too much water is VERY, VERY BAD!!!!!
First, it will beging to "pump" when it gets saturated. This means it turns to jello and has absolutley no strength to it.
Never, never, never put muddy material into your pad!!!
It's very rare around here to have to add water to fill material, but maybe your area is different. Jobs I did in California just about always required it.
The other reason not to put too much water into your pad is moisture takes away from the strength of your concrete. The dryer the pour, the stronger it will be. You can loose as much as 20 percent of the strength in your pad from too much water in the mix.
This is the main reason to put a vapor barrier down when pouring a pad. We don't do it in my area because the clay doesn't transfer much water into the mix when poured, but up north and other areas, they seem to do it all the time.
Spread the fill material with your bucket. Dump and spread it out real thin. Do this with every load and drive over it as much as possible. This will take a forever, but in the end, it will give you a solid pad.
Do not rush this and try to dump allot of material in one place and expect to spread it out later on. It's impossible to get compaction at the bottom of a pile, and spreading it out will usually leave high and low spots. The highs are the areas of future problems.
Have you talked to the cement contractor? Rarely does the builder also do the pouring. These are tow different guys, and I think one is giving you bad advice. The cement guy will know all about pads and what you need to do, where the builder wont'. Be careful of guys who do one thing well, but give bad advice on other things. They don't know how to admit they don't know something and who knows what else he's said he can do when he can't.
A friend had a shop built for his buisiness. It all went great until the builder started framing out the offices. He can build huge metal buildings, but didn't have a clue on framing with wood. He did such a bad job at the end of the project that he's now being sued by my friend. If he'd just done what he knew how to do, and had a wood framer come in to finish off the offices, he's have received final payment, had a loyal customer who would have recomended him for other jobs, and not be in the middle of a court case today.
Eddie
)</font>
I agree that topsoil is a poor choice of fill, but I take some offense to that builders don't know concrete, Eddie. I'm a builder and do my own concrete work, with no problems in 20 years, I might add. It is usually I who have to tell the concrete contractor what to do when we do ocassionally hire one. Builders are people just like doctors, teachers and welders, there's good ones and there's bad ones. I'm a good one and I know what I'm doing.
Anyway, just make sure you dampen the material as you go to help it settle in, don't soak it into mud. Just rent a jumping jack for a day and compact it properly in thin layers. Loader tires are not the way to compact since you can't cover all spots and you have no idea how much compacting power you have.
Why not use sand? Was it not available in your area, or is the dirt cheaper?
I'd prefer clean dirt compared to dirt with rock in it, but the rock shouldn't cause any problems if it's small enough for a base.
The top soil is a HUGE mistake!! Did you mis-name it? Could it be clean fill and not topsoil? Topsoils is the worse material you can use because it's full or organic material that will continue to break down and decompose over many years. It's impossible to get compaction with it and your foundation will have voids in it over time.
The fact that your contractor recomended it has me worried right from the beginning. This is a huge red flag!!!
Idealy, you want your pad to be of one material built up in lifts depending on the material and tools available. Sandwiching different materials makes it harder, if not impossilble for them to bind to each other.
Here's what you should be doing. Clear OFF the topsoil where you barn is going. Build up the pad with clean fill material. Again, sand is the best, but clay works too.
Have the dump truck dump the dirt outside of the pad. If it's super dry and needs water, mix it outside the pad. Ideally, you want the material to have enough moisture in it to hold together tight when you squeeze it in your hand. You can also tell when you get it right by the way it cuts with your bucket. The material will compact into solid material and you will create what looks like a smoot edge on it. It aint rocket science, but you might have to experiment with it some.
Too much water is VERY, VERY BAD!!!!!
First, it will beging to "pump" when it gets saturated. This means it turns to jello and has absolutley no strength to it.
Never, never, never put muddy material into your pad!!!
It's very rare around here to have to add water to fill material, but maybe your area is different. Jobs I did in California just about always required it.
The other reason not to put too much water into your pad is moisture takes away from the strength of your concrete. The dryer the pour, the stronger it will be. You can loose as much as 20 percent of the strength in your pad from too much water in the mix.
This is the main reason to put a vapor barrier down when pouring a pad. We don't do it in my area because the clay doesn't transfer much water into the mix when poured, but up north and other areas, they seem to do it all the time.
Spread the fill material with your bucket. Dump and spread it out real thin. Do this with every load and drive over it as much as possible. This will take a forever, but in the end, it will give you a solid pad.
Do not rush this and try to dump allot of material in one place and expect to spread it out later on. It's impossible to get compaction at the bottom of a pile, and spreading it out will usually leave high and low spots. The highs are the areas of future problems.
Have you talked to the cement contractor? Rarely does the builder also do the pouring. These are tow different guys, and I think one is giving you bad advice. The cement guy will know all about pads and what you need to do, where the builder wont'. Be careful of guys who do one thing well, but give bad advice on other things. They don't know how to admit they don't know something and who knows what else he's said he can do when he can't.
A friend had a shop built for his buisiness. It all went great until the builder started framing out the offices. He can build huge metal buildings, but didn't have a clue on framing with wood. He did such a bad job at the end of the project that he's now being sued by my friend. If he'd just done what he knew how to do, and had a wood framer come in to finish off the offices, he's have received final payment, had a loyal customer who would have recomended him for other jobs, and not be in the middle of a court case today.
Eddie
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I agree that topsoil is a poor choice of fill, but I take some offense to that builders don't know concrete, Eddie. I'm a builder and do my own concrete work, with no problems in 20 years, I might add. It is usually I who have to tell the concrete contractor what to do when we do ocassionally hire one. Builders are people just like doctors, teachers and welders, there's good ones and there's bad ones. I'm a good one and I know what I'm doing.
Anyway, just make sure you dampen the material as you go to help it settle in, don't soak it into mud. Just rent a jumping jack for a day and compact it properly in thin layers. Loader tires are not the way to compact since you can't cover all spots and you have no idea how much compacting power you have.