Building up Pad site for Barn

EddieWalker · Apr 5, 2006

Sounds like your doing your on the right track. Just for anybody else who's following this, since your already set on your materials. Sand may feel like it moves around when you walk through it, but it will lck tight better than any other material to support a structure.

I use it if I have to buy or truck in any material. You don't have to worry about compacting it, just spread it out and build. It's required for fill is some parts of California with their crazy eathquake codes, and used just about nationwide for fill where available.

Your dirt fill will work fine. Its what I use on my buildings since I have lots of it and it's free.

The jumping jack, as you called it, is primarily used for compaction in trenches. It's really good at that since you have a tight space that is usually two feet wide and difficult to get in and out of. I'd never consider using one for a building pad, but I don't see why it woudn't work. Just a huge pain in the but.

Did you ask the rental company if they had any other types of compactors? There are several vibratory models that are really nice for pads. They roll along with two sets of drums and you walk behind it. Sort of like a super lawn mower, but on Fred Flinstone wheels. Again, I just use my tractor to compact while spreading, but in some small commercial jobs, I've seen these used. Never done it myself though.

Have fun,
Eddie

EddieWalker · Apr 5, 2006

L39Builder,

I have no doubt that you are a very compitent builder and I'm sure you have more knowledge and experience than I do. In no way was I directing my comments at you or anybody else on this forum.

I do think that you will agree with me that everyone in the trades has skills that they are better at and areas that they are not so good at.

In my experience, framers are very good at framing with wood, but are usually terrible at trim and finish work. Not all of them, but plenty of them. Interestingly enough, I've found that trim guys are also great framers!! I think it's in the eye for detail, but it's just a guess on my part.

As for builders not knowing concrete, I'll stick with that observation as it relates to my post. Most are very knowledgable on what they need to do the job, but like me and most others, if you don't deal in all aspects of a trade, than you only know a limited amount of it based on your exposure. Building a pad for a workshop or a house is pretty basic. Building overhead concrete structures is something entirely different and totally beyond my scope of understanding or knowlegde. It doesn't mean I'm a bad builder because I don't know the concrete trade, just that there's no reason for me to know it.

Pads are pretty basic and if you take your time and do it right, just about anybody can do a good job at it. The concern I had was in the original post, and some of the terms the poster used. Since I have no personal experience in his area and how things are done there, I can only reply to what he posts and my own personal experience. I'd think the same would be true will everyone here.

He suggested a few things that indicated to me that his builder wasn't a dirt or concrete guy. His reply confirmed that. There is a sub coming in to do the pour and he was getting his information from the builder. Talking directly with the cement sub will iliminate all of his confusion.

Eddie

npaden · Apr 5, 2006

They have a vibrating plate compactor but said that it is more for sand than dirt. It looks like it would be a lot easier to use but also looks like it wouldn't do as good of a job compacting as the jumping jack would.

I think I will try to hire someone to run the jumping jack. With a 13" wide shoe it will take 30+ passes back and forth on each layer. 30 passes of 40 feet would take about how long on a jumping jack? An hour? Two hours? If it is just an hour or 2 I think I can handle it but if not I will probably need to hire someone so I can get it done this weekend.

As I get thicker the size I'm packing will actually get smaller as by the time I get up 12" I will only be working on the very back 1/3rd of the pad but I want to make sure it is packed well so I might go over it a couple times once I'm down to the last couple layers.

Thanks again for the input.

Builder · Apr 5, 2006

( They have a vibrating plate compactor but said that it is more for sand than dirt. It looks like it would be a lot easier to use but also looks like it wouldn't do as good of a job compacting as the jumping jack would. )

A vibratory tamper is suited for tamping sand or screenings under a dry-laid patio or tamping hot asphalt. It is more suited for "settling" fine material into place. A jumping jack is the tool you want. It is suited for compacting loose & bulky fill.

( "I think I will try to hire someone to run the jumping jack. With a 13" wide shoe it will take 30+ passes back and forth on each layer. 30 passes of 40 feet would take about how long on a jumping jack? An hour? Two hours? If it is just an hour or 2 I think I can handle it but if not I will probably need to hire someone so I can get it done this weekend.

As I get thicker the size I'm packing will actually get smaller as by the time I get up 12" I will only be working on the very back 1/3rd of the pad but I want to make sure it is packed well so I might go over it a couple times once I'm down to the last couple layers.

Thanks again for the input. )

They're not that hard to handle once you get it going. Just start in the middle till you get used to how it handles. You'll find it only takes 10 minutes to get used to it, but you might be a tad sore by the end of the day.

Builder · Apr 5, 2006

( L39Builder,

I have no doubt that you are a very compitent builder and I'm sure you have more knowledge and experience than I do. In no way was I directing my comments at you or anybody else on this forum.

I do think that you will agree with me that everyone in the trades has skills that they are better at and areas that they are not so good at.

In my experience, framers are very good at framing with wood, but are usually terrible at trim and finish work. Not all of them, but plenty of them. Interestingly enough, I've found that trim guys are also great framers!! I think it's in the eye for detail, but it's just a guess on my part.

As for builders not knowing concrete, I'll stick with that observation as it relates to my post. Most are very knowledgable on what they need to do the job, but like me and most others, if you don't deal in all aspects of a trade, than you only know a limited amount of it based on your exposure. Building a pad for a workshop or a house is pretty basic. Building overhead concrete structures is something entirely different and totally beyond my scope of understanding or knowlegde. It doesn't mean I'm a bad builder because I don't know the concrete trade, just that there's no reason for me to know it.

Pads are pretty basic and if you take your time and do it right, just about anybody can do a good job at it. The concern I had was in the original post, and some of the terms the poster used. Since I have no personal experience in his area and how things are done there, I can only reply to what he posts and my own personal experience. I'd think the same would be true will everyone here.

He suggested a few things that indicated to me that his builder wasn't a dirt or concrete guy. His reply confirmed that. There is a sub coming in to do the pour and he was getting his information from the builder. Talking directly with the cement sub will iliminate all of his confusion.

Eddie

)

Eddie,

IMO, A good builder or general contractor should have an excellent working knowledge of every trade he supervises. Otherwise, he is no better than the customer he is working for. You might find it hard to believe, but I excavate, pour concrete, lay block & brick, stucco and do framing & finish carpenty on almost every house, garage & addition we build. We also install all of our own kitchens, baths and appliances. We even do tile and landscaping when we have to. Sometimes we get help from a mason or framer, but they work alongside of me & my guys.

npaden · Apr 7, 2006

Okay, Here's the current plan.

I'm going to pickup the jumping jack on the way home from work tonight. I can rent it for $105 from Friday evening until 8 am Monday morning. I'm getting 3 loads of dirt delivered this afternoon and I'm going to use the tractor to spread it out and then I have a helper hired to run the jumping jack to pack it down. The way I have it calculated the first 3 loads will be good for the first layer and then I will use less dirt for each layer as I work up. (I hope I have the amount of dirt required calculated correctly)

I'm getting 3 more loads of dirt delivered on Saturday morning. I'll get another layer spread on Saturday morning before I go to work and have my helper come out and pack it late that morning. Then I'll come back from work around lunch and try to spread another layer and get that packed down before my helper has to leave. Then I'll spread another layer that evening and then either pack it myself on Sunday or get my helper come out and help Sunday afternoon depending on how things are going.

That's the tenative plan. I plan on spreading it and pack it in about 5" thick layers to get it packed in good. As we work up in height the layers are going to get smaller also.

Does this sound like a legitimate timeline for a 30x40 pad? How many times will we need to run the jumping jack over the dirt to get it compacted well? This is assuming the dirt is moist and I don't have to do a lot of watering it. If I need to water it how much is that going to screw up my timeline? If I need to water it should I water the layers lightly after I get them packed or after I get them spread but before we pack them down? I could water it Friday night or Saturday morning without messing up my timeline very much as long as I didn't make it muddy.

Thanks for the input!

Nathan

Doc_Bob · Apr 7, 2006

What are you paying for a load of dirt? Fill? Field run? Amount?
Bob

npaden · Apr 7, 2006

I'm paying $60 delivered for an 8 yard load.

3 loads of it will be some regular type fill dirt with some gravel and brick pieces mixed in that I'm going to put down first, then the next 3 loads are going to be clean fill dirt.

jwstewar · Apr 7, 2006

When I did my floor last summer I used about 154 tons of fill. It was a sand/gravel mixture. The garage was 30x48 with about a 2' drop going from back to front. Once I took the topsoil off I had probably 6-8" fill in the back and probably 24-30" in the front. I dug all of the topsoil out with my little NH first (my build was already built). I also dug out for the driveway at the same time. I had the dump truck just dump it back into the driveway - no mess to cleanup. Once I had everything dug out, I laid my floor drain plumbing. I then started hauling the sand/gravel mixture in one loader bucket at a time. Started by building a road up over the pipes. That was the hardest part getting up over them. Once I had a layer probably 3 - 4" thick over the whole floor I sprayed it down with the water hose (just dampening it). Let it set for a half hour or so and used the vibrating compactor that I had rented. Then started the process over. Took me some Thursday night, Friday night, all day Saturday, and most of Sunday. I picked the vibrator up on Saturday morning a returned Monday morning. I probably compacted a total of 6 or 7 times going over it 2 or 3 times each compaction. Since my garage was already built, I also used a hand tamper along the edges. Now almost 8 months later (wow, I can't believe it has been that long. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) no problems. No cracks no settling or anything. I did put down a vapor barrier and 1" foam board underneath.

I'm no expert and don't claim to be. Right, wrong, or indifferent this is how I did it. YMMV.

npaden · Apr 7, 2006

Whew! Just got finished for tonight.

The kid that I hired to run the jumping jack is in for a treat tomorrow. He was already feeling it today and he only ran it for 2 hours.

Well, my timeline is going to be off a little. My dirt got here late (nearly 7) and we didn't get it all packed down tonight. I had given up on him and started to move dirt from a spot about 150 yards away one bucket at a time starting around 5:30 and finally he showed up at 7. I probably had moved about 3 or 4 yards by the time he showed up. I think about 8 trips. (I wasn't moving dirt the whole time, my helper showed up so we were messing with the jumping jack for a little while)

It is spreading out with the loader much easier than I thought it would. I can spread a dump truck load out evenly in about 20 minutes or so. Then I would get a bucket of dirt and start driving back and forth over it while the kid was running the jumping jack and we were waiting for the next load. Got the last load about 8:30 and ran with the lights on smoothing it out.

My helper is going to come back around 8 and start packing it down. I asked for the first load of dirt to get here at 9:30 so that will give him 1 1/2 hours of packing before it arrives. I think I will go to work just so I don't feel so bad with hiim out there packing it without me although I guess I could get another load of dirt in the bucket and drive back and forth. Having the dump truck with a full load driving back and forth over it would do a pretty good job of packing it. Maybe I can talk him into that! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've got a couple pieces of PVC sticking up in the back corners of the building spot. I tried to get them about 5 or 6" deep with dirt and tried to keep the same slope as the ground around it so there would be an even 6" of new fill all around. I'm getting somewhat concerned after spreading these 3 loads out that 3 more loads isn't going to be enough, but I knew the first layer was going to take the most dirt so maybe I'll be okay. It will be easy to get more dirt if I need it.

Here's the before picture:

When the pad is complete the dirt will be to the top of the white PVC stakes.

I ended up cutting back the mesquite tree quite a bit too so I could get the tractor back there to work the dirt.

It was dark out so I couldn't get a pic tonight of the first layer spread out but I will take one in the morning.

Put about 3 hours on the tractor today. It's starting to earn it's keep!