Bummer B7100 FEL -- looking for advice

chrisinnh · May 23, 2007

Okay!

I've posted some new pictures.

I've found the elusive oil pump (it's not the blue box with 4 bolts), and it does indeed seem to draw oil from the gearbox. If I can use this system to run the FEL, I wonder why the front pump drive and reservoir integrated into the loader were made... Perhaps for faster loader operation than is possible with the smallish onboard pump?

The 4-6 gpm that's been suggested would take 4.5-6.5 seconds to move my loader from full curl to full dump. Getting better, but still seems slow.

So... What's the blue box?

How might I go about plumbing my FEL to this gear oil setup? Even if the speed isn't greatly improved, I'll be happy to decouple the loader from the backhoe, and I'll be thrilled to still have hydraulic power with my foot on the clutch.

Thanks so much for insight thus far...

/chris

hazmat · May 23, 2007

chrisinnh said:
...Huh. I'd never have guessed that all of these systems (hydro trans, log splitters, backhoes, power steering) were using heavy oil.

Am I understanding this correctly? Do I have the right stuff (90 weight) in my gearbox?

Probably not - "gear oil" (90WT) is usually only used in gearboxes (like your mower for example). Generally speaking, the tractor transmission oil is version of "hydraulic fluid" and lighter than the gear oil. Chappell should be able to tell you what spec oil to put where.

Not to be rude - but maybe you should stop for a second and figure out what you are doing, before you damage the tractor. At a minimum, get ahold of the owners manual for the unit - it will describe how to service the machine. Even better would be to invite a friend over who is familiar with farm or heavy equipment to show you the ropes.

Chappell has a mobile service program. Perhaps you should hire them to come out & give it a once over - I'm sure the technician would explain what he is doing if you were there to watch.

chrisinnh · May 23, 2007

hazmat said:
Probably not - "gear oil" (90WT) is usually only used in gearboxes (like your mower for example). Generally speaking, the tractor transmission oil is version of "hydraulic fluid" and lighter than the gear oil. Chappell should be able to tell you what spec oil to put where.

Included in the new pictures is the label from the transmission. It says GEAROIL=80, so I put Napa 80-90 in there.

Not to be rude - but maybe you should stop for a second and figure out what you are doing, before you damage the tractor.

Not rude at all! There's no question I don't know what I'm doing

At a minimum, get ahold of the owners manual for the unit - it will describe how to service the machine.

Chappell called while I was at work today. Both the parts book and the service manual are waiting for me to pickup tomorrow morning.

Chappell has a mobile service program. Perhaps you should hire them to come out & give it a once over - I'm sure the technician would explain what he is doing if you were there to watch.

Interesting. I didn't know about that. Incidentally, the other day I was talking with Andy at Chappell. After I described my bummer loader situation he showed me the 6100 with front pump that I described above. Funny that he didn't mention the hydraulic system that I've only just discovered I already have...

ronjhall · May 24, 2007

chrisinnh said:
Am I understanding this correctly? Do I have the right stuff (90 weight) in my gearbox?

I believe you will find that 90 weight oil is not correct. This may be why your FEL & BH are slow.

KJM · May 24, 2007

G'Day Chrisinnh - welcome.

I'm a B7100 owner too - mines an early 1980's, so it is basically the same. Couple of things:

(1) Kubota basically replaced 80 grade oil for the gearbox/hydraulics with Kubota UDT (or the equivalent). You should probably be using that, particularly if you mod the FEL to use the hydraulics provided by the tractor.

(2) The "Blue Block" is a hydraulic block in the pressure line from the tractor's hydraulics. You can splice into this block. (Mine doesn't have the block, so details aren't available from me!).

I have a FEL run off the tractor hydraulics, and it works OK. My FEL has only one curl cylinder, so I can't comment on your predicted speeds. The only thing that looks really a bit odd is the 1 you used for the R of the cylinders. That means it is a 2" cylinder? (You did deduct the cylinder wall thickness?). The native hydraulics run at 1700psi (near enough) so with 2 x 2" rams you have over 10,000lbs of curl (less the mechanical leverage, but even so...)! Given the weight of the tractor, this "is a bit excessive"

My FEL is spliced into the system by breaking the pipe (the blue block does this for you) and a feed from the pump runs to the 2spool valve for the FEL and the exhaust (it isn't "Power beyond") runs back into the other side of the broken circuit. "Logically", the pipe into the front of the blue block has a hose to the loader valve and the return runs to the rear pipe.

Running it this way means you can't simultaneously mess about with the 3pt and the loader. But you really can't do that anyway unless you have 2 right arms!

Best of luck with it, if there is anything I can do (from Australia!) let me know.

/Kevin

gotcha · May 24, 2007

chrisinnh said:
Thanks Danno. BH is a KUW-200 according to the plate hanging from it. The FEL has no signage.
You're not kidding. Where does your FEL hydraulic power come from?
/chris

My FEL hydrulics comes from the transmission and goes to a block that you show in one of your pics. Mine isn't real fast, but is isn't slow either. I just sold mine so my manuals all went with it or I would make a copy of the hydrulic part and send it to ya. Sorry.
The Gothcha Man

charlz · May 24, 2007

I have a similar year b7100 with the b670 backhoe and the b219 loader. I would say your loader is not a b219 but either a close model or a knockoff.

I posted some pics of my loader here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/93074-kubotab7100d-loader.html

it uses a dedicated front hydraulic pump and the reservoir is in the right hand post by the controls. You can see the filler cap in my pic.

I believe the KUW200 backhoe is a later generation of the b670, Have no proof, just what I think. Your hoe looks exactly like mine so I am not sure what they changed, if anything.

This post is the one with various manuals:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ooks-free-parts-manuals.html?highlight=manual

You can find the b219 loader manual there which shows how it all hooks up. Might even be some part numbers to order the parts you would want.

I still run 80-90w gear oil the transmission/3-pt sump but the loader and backhoe both call for 10-40 motor oil. I plan on switching these out to UDT in the future.

I would like to request a few pics. My tractor has the same backhoe seat adapter but it interferes with the 3pt. Can you take some pics of the upper quadrant arms and the lower attachment of the backhoe?

Thanks!

Charles

LHoyer · May 24, 2007

My 2 cents worth. The blue box with the bolts is for tapping into the tractors existing 3 pt hydraulic system, however, you have to have an adapter block to do this. I made my adapter block but it is available from Kubota as part # 70060-00360. I've attched two scans from some manuals I have. The block as it exists, has an internal "through" port to complete the hydraulic system. The adapter has an in and out port. The diagram shows how this is done. You will need to have a control valve with a power beyond option, so that you can use your 3 pt. You will also need to plumb in a line to "dump" excess into your tranny fill hole. Again, I made the adpter for the dump for my tractor, but it is available from Kubota. It si called a crossover oil fitting. This is shown on the diagram also. Be aware that if you disconnect the revised sytem from the adapter, you will have to install the hose as shown in picture 2, so that you have 3 pt operation and don't blow your pump up. This Kubota pump has only a 3.1 gpm delivery if memory serves me correctly. The manuals you are obtaining are probably NOT going to show this hydraulic set-uo. I had to do a fair amount of looking to find the info I needed to hook up a snowblower.

chrisinnh · May 24, 2007

KJM said:
(1) Kubota basically replaced 80 grade oil for the gearbox/hydraulics with Kubota UDT (or the equivalent). You should probably be using that, particularly if you mod the FEL to use the hydraulics provided by the tractor.

So, the spec changed, and I can safely use the UDT in my gear transmission? I picked up (handled) a jug of UDT today. It seemed much thinner than SAE 80. Certainly an advantage for hydraulic systems, but should I worry about my gears with it?

(2) The "Blue Block" is a hydraulic block in the pressure line from the tractor's hydraulics. You can splice into this block. (Mine doesn't have the block, so details aren't available from me!).

The purpose (and plumbing) of the blue block is perfectly clear now that i've seen the document linked by LHoyer.

I have a FEL run off the tractor hydraulics, and it works OK. My FEL has only one curl cylinder, so I can't comment on your predicted speeds. The only thing that looks really a bit odd is the 1 you used for the R of the cylinders. That means it is a 2" cylinder? (You did deduct the cylinder wall thickness?). The native hydraulics run at 1700psi (near enough) so with 2 x 2" rams you have over 10,000lbs of curl (less the mechanical leverage, but even so...)! Given the weight of the tractor, this "is a bit excessive"

Yeah, I've really got dual 2" I.D. cylinders for both lift and curl. My loader seems really big compared to the loaders I see on other B series machines. These huge cylinders are the reason my FEL is so slow.

Best of luck with it, if there is anything I can do (from Australia!) let me know.

Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate the help.

/chris

chrisinnh · May 24, 2007

charlz said:
I have a similar year b7100 with the b670 backhoe and the b219 loader. I would say your loader is not a b219 but either a close model or a knockoff.

Hi Charles. I agree that mine looks like a b219 knockoff. I sure wish I had the front end drive stuff. The parts book shows a couple of different crank pulleys: One with 3 holes in the perimeter, and a PTO adapter that screws into those holes. ...and mine. No holes. No PTO. Just tiny splines on the front end of the crank.

I believe the KUW200 backhoe is a later generation of the b670, Have no proof, just what I think. Your hoe looks exactly like mine so I am not sure what they changed, if anything.

Yeah, I've seen the thread with your grapevine trench. I'm excited to know that it may be a b670, because nobody has ever heard of KUW200.

Charles, what filter do you have on your B670? Mine has a fram PH8A (ford V8 engine oil). That can't possibly be right. The parts guy at Chappell couldn't figure out what KUW200 or B670 were, so I spend a while opening boxes and comparing filters to a fresh PH8A. None matched.

I still run 80-90w gear oil the transmission/3-pt sump but the loader and backhoe both call for 10-40 motor oil. I plan on switching these out to UDT in the future.

10-40 in the backhoe?

My backhoe has hydraulic fluid (mobil something or other) in it... Ugh. This was not something I expected to get wrong. ...if it's running motor oil, then the PH8A filter might make sense!

I would like to request a few pics. My tractor has the same backhoe seat adapter but it interferes with the 3pt. Can you take some pics of the upper quadrant arms and the lower attachment of the backhoe?

I'd be happy to, I'll try to get them up there tonight.

Upper quadrant arms: Are these the powered lifting arms? Mine run into the seat adapter (which only just now occurs to me that it is a backhoe part).

Lower attachment: Are you looking for the lower area where backhoe attaches to loader crossmember, or where loader attaches to rear axle?

...And about that seat adapter: It looks like there should be a 1/4" rod to pin the seat in the 'up' position. Is it just a long rod with an "L" bend, or something more?

/chris