Buying a first Tractor; HST or not?

Soundguy · Jul 18, 2002

Soundguy - If you check the shop manuals for "shift-on-the-fly", PowerReverser, GST, etc. hydraulic clutch transmissions, you'll find that they engage by means of hydraulic pressure, not vice versa. Further, if you talk with an engineer who really knows these systems, he'll tell you that, for that reason, there's a little greater loss between a strictly mechanical clutch driven gear type transmission and the hydraulic clutch type than there is between the hydraulic clutch type and HST. Which, of course, means that HST still "suffers" from greater power loss than the other two, but provides a great deal of insight as to the real reason for gear lover's bringing it up. Those who prefer gear transmissions rarely talk about power loss from hydraulic clutches - it's not important to them. However, when they talk about HST transmissions, it's suddenly a big deal. Which

In my opening line I stated that I had little working knowledge of the mechanics of the hydro-actuated clutch.

And as I stated, and you re-iterate, there is probably less loss on a hydro actuated clutch, than on a straight HST drive.
Once again, this was what I actually said in my original post. That full circle thing has happened again.

When the question of relative "superiority" of one transmission type over the other is asked, I can only assume the asker already knows whether he likes to shift gears on not

That is an openly biased statement, without pre-qualification. In your statement, if a person 'a' walks up to you, and asks you which tranny is superior ( hst vs gear ), by your logic listed above, you automatically assume that the person 'a' prefers a gear tranny.... aside from precognition or consulting madame cleo... how do you know by the mere asking of the question what someone prefers?... alright fess up.. are you really John Edwards in disguise?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif?

Soundguy

MChalkley · Jul 18, 2002

Soundguy - That is an openly biased statement, without pre-qualification. Actually, I didn't mean it to be as all-encompassing as that. I only meant that most people who're thinking about buying a tractor will at least have driven something with a gear transmission before and know if they're in love with the act of shifting gears. My comment had nothing to do with bias on my part (the way I meant it, at least) , it was just intended to be a simple statement of fact - by definition, you know when you like something. If you haven't tried it yet, you may not have an opinion, but you know you're not in love with it.

Trev · Jul 18, 2002

...The only thing I take exception to is the constant talk that the hst is the only way to go and a person would be a fool to own a gear tractor. An hst isn't the answer for everyone and not everyone that has one is going to want to keep one.

I think the statement above sums it up perfectly. I've had both, and I loved them both. I'll probably stick with gears, though.

It's funny that we are tractor afficionados, and yet we talk about how can we get the job done faster, how can we avoid shifting, etc.. in short, how we can use the tractor less! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif It would be like a sports car fan who doesn't enjoy shifting, heel&toe, and so on. An automatic is better in a traffic jam, and manual is better on a winding mountain road, no? I put up with the PITA traffic jams so I can enjoy the manual in all the other situations. Same with the tractor. Yes, sometimes the HST would be a Godsend. But not often enough, in my case. YMMV! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Also, for me, the manual is safer. I won't bore people again with my reasoning for feeling this way.. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird · Jul 18, 2002

It's funny that we are tractor afficionados, and yet we talk about how can we get the job done faster, how can we avoid shifting, etc.. in short, how we can use the tractor less!

Darn right, Bob. I attribute my attitude to age; don't know about the rest of you./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif When I was a kid, I'd look for excuses to get on the tractor, but now . . ., sure I like tractors, but only to get the work done faster and easier, and the sooner I can get through and get off, the better I like it.

And I'm the same way with boats; used to love playing with them, but now the only reason I get on a boat is if that's the only way to get to the fish./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

And when I was 18, I got a '56 Mercury convertible; loved that car and loved driving it. I thought the only way it could get any better would have been if it had a manual transmission instead of the Mercomatic it had./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Sure wouldn't want it today with a rag top, no power steering, and no air-conditioner./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

MossRoad · Jul 18, 2002

I like old technology too... I visit the tractor museum often. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif That's a joke. Don't flame me /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif.

I like going to the old tractor shows where they demonstrate all the equipment with gears, belts, pulleys, etc... It takes a real skill to operate those machines competently. I've operated alot of different equipment with gears, and then operated their 'new and improved' model with automatics and hydros. If you can avoid moving your shift arm several hundred times a day, several days a week, several weeks a month, and so on, you will grow to appreciate it. Same thing goes for your clutch leg. I look at all of the old farmers that I know and not one of them walks erect, without a limp and without pain. They've put in a lifetime of hard work and are paying the price for repetitive strain on their bodies. The automatics are just plain less of a strain on your body at the end of the day. IMHO /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

SethO · Jul 18, 2002

Soundguy,

I noted you seemed very concerned about the power loss through the hydro fluid, but that has been addressed somewhat by later posts. Are you saying that a machine without power steering is better because of power loss in the ones with power steering? Of course NOT.

More importantly, you did not refute my assertion that there is no situation where a geared tractor can be more easily and safely used than an HST, but there are situations that an HST is safer and easier.

Trev · Jul 18, 2002

I like old technology too... I visit the tractor museum often./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif That's a joke. Don't flame me ./w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Don't worry.. I don't have any flames left in me.. getting too old or something. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

But seriously, can someone tell me how to solve my problem? My problem is, as I've mentioned in other threads, that over 45+ years of driving has left me with a bunch of automatic responses to perceived emergencies. One of them is to nail the right pedal when I need to stop fast. I had a little GT235 and I was downright dangerous on it. I would, for example, slowly back my pal's roller up an incline, and when I'd get to the top I would nail the other pedal to keep myself there. Since the other pedal was, in fact, the forward HST pedal, I would rocket down the hill and, blushing, have to back up it again. I did this twice in a row! It's a miracle nobody ever got hurt. Now, at least, I am using my standard old dinosaur equipment.. brakes on right, clutch on left.. and no mishaps. How does someone like me, whose brain consists of a hamster running in a wheel, overcome all these decades of conditioning???

I'd love an HST if I could drive one safely! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Trev · Jul 18, 2002

And when I was 18, I got a '56 Mercury convertible; loved that car and loved driving it. I thought the only way it could get any better would have been if it had a manual transmission instead of the Mercomatic it had. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Sure wouldn't want it today with a rag top, no power steering, and no air-conditioner. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

When I was a kid, I had a '65 Ford Falcon, hard top, three speed on the column.. and I wouldn't want it today either! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

You're right, Bird.. the goal is to get the lawn mowed in time to get out there and catch the fish. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

JATO_RaT · Jul 18, 2002

Ed, I would agree, even if its not in the operators manual of your tractor. Mine makes no mention of it. I have found though that todays safety guidelines aren't always there in the best interest of the owner but rather to protect companies from the liabilities their products can't help avoid. Geez if I used my ladders as told to do so by the 15 stickiers attached, I'd learn to fly. My experience on the tractor allows me to do things that I don't mention here for fear someone may actually try it and get hurt. Going downhill with a full load requires approriate ballast and an alert operator that won't panic when the rear end comes up. I'm sure when the highways here in California and Colorado were cut, there were many manuvers performed by skilled operators that would certainly violate todays operator safety manuals, but done with skill can be accomplished, saving not only time, but considerable manual manpower costs. As far as the discussion here is concerned and since I still own both types manual and hydrostatic transmissions, I still stand by my opinion about HST being safer, at least for the general compact customer. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that one. Rat....

cowboydoc · Jul 18, 2002

Seth,
There are many places where a gear tractor is superior to an hst tractor related to actual farming work. If you're talking about what most of the guys do with their tractors on this board then no there isn't anything superior or inferior about a hydro or gear tractor. The only place I can think of related to most of the guys here is with spraying. Pretty hard to get a constant ground speed spraying with a hydro but then again most of the guys aren't too worried about it anyway as they only do a few acres. With me that's primarily what I do with the 4600 related to farming and I do 300 some acres so it makes a big difference if I don't have my ground speed exactly right as my corn and beans will be dead.