Buying a first Tractor; HST or not?

   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #141  
Rat, I understand what you are saying about safety guidlines, but some of them do make sense. I think that is one of them. I did state as well, that I wouldn't recomend it unless it was "someone with consideral experience on thier machine." I'm not saying I wouldn't do it if I had no other alternative, but given an alternative, I would take it. This is what I mean by safety being the responsibility of the operator. Know yourself and your machine, and the limits of both. I could further give a scenario where the HST could be less safe in the above situation to an inexperienced operator. Going down the hill with the full bucket, hitting a bump causing your foot to press harder on the pedal, causing the tractor to lurch, causing your foot to press further, etc. While the saftey of the hst might be marginally better, I don't feel that is enough to make it an issue in the gear vs. hst debate. As I stated earlier, I think it is a matter of personal preference, rather than one being better than the other.

Actually the safety recomendation not to go down hill with the loaded bucked was in a generic safety pamphlet about loaders that my dealer gave me when I purchased my tractor.
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #142  
Richard, what the heck are you spraying that requires that extreme degree of precision? My HST speed on flat ground appears to stay pretty darn accurate, but since all I have is a tach and no MPH gauge, its hard to tell. I would think that if it is that critical, then the days you spray must be quite limited if the wind is blowing. It seems here in CA. the Delta breeze is always moving the air around. Bear in mind, I'm just curious and not trying to convince anyone that an HST is more suitable for the job, heaven forbid I give the wrong idea. hehehehe,,, Rat...
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #143  
Cowboydoc,

Are you implying that you have better control of your ground speed with a manual (geared) transmission?

Seth
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #144  
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   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #145  
Rat-

I guess the problem that I have is not with HST at all.

To parrot Cowboydoc:
<font color=red>If an hst works for a person that is great. If a gear tractor works that's great too. The only thing I take exception to is the constant talk that the hst is the only way to go and a person would be a fool to own a gear tractor. </font color=red>

My frustration is at the superiority complex (sometimes inadvertent) that a lot of the HST guys seem to portray. Basically I'm referring to tone/verbiage that some use - Just look back & re-read the posts. A lot of them, intended or not, come across as arrogant and condescending - just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Now, I'm not saying every HST person/post has been that way nor am I saying every "gear guy" is a saint. This is ALWAYS going to be a "holy war" issue, but, in the interest of civility, I'm just a bit disheartened how some folks follow the "Venetian blind" mentality to promote HST (e.g. make HST seem better by pulling down gear).

Am I "oversensitive"? maybe - maybe not. From my other posts, I think it's obvious I'm not the P.C. "can't we all just get along" type - but that being said, I don't think that's what I'm advocating here.

I'll go ahead and give some examples of what I see as this attitude based on your last post. Hopefully this will illustrate my point of how sometimes the HST guys don't come across as helpful/informative but something quite different.
-------
<font color=blue>so I should continue to discuss a topic with folks who really do not know what they are talking about, that would make me a politician. </font color=blue>
/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif So who here are you accusing of "not having a clue?" "Gear guys" - since they could never know because they don't have HST?

<font color=blue>It is not this particular thread to which I was addressing but rather a few months ago. </font color=blue>
/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif So you aren't talking about any responses in this thread then?

<font color=blue>While I never once read a person say "gears are for babies and backyard do it yourselfers" it was spewed forth from folks with the standard or geared view point regarding hydrostatic that it was obvious it was a waste of time trying to explain or rationalize with them. </font color=blue>
I can't comment on the thread you're referring to since I haven't read it.

But, it appears though that "gear guys" apparently "Spew" lots of irrational, nonsencical, crazy-talk, are a waste of you're time, and that you see no value in any of their comments. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

I'll admit, there are some jerky/irrational types out there, but I haven't seen that the majority of them drive a "stick shift" as implied.

<font color=blue>Interestingly, I seem to recall the comment being made by guys who bought tractors from manufacturers that don't even offer hydrostatic as an option.</font color=blue>
/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif So, now the implication is that unless you drive a "Name Brand" that offers HST, you are unqualified to comment or your opinion is obviously colored? No, nothing condescending/insulting about this comment.....

<font color=blue>I don't mind discussing the subject with folks with an open mind, I won't try to convince anyone to quickly run out and buy HST, nor will I tell them that gears are a crummy deal. </font color=blue>
To me at least, it hasn't really come across that way - basically a majority of HST folks imply, if not outright state, that HST is superior in every way from a functional perspective. There is also the common theme implied from folks who were once "gear" but have converted to HST that "boy - I'm sure a lot smarter now that I have an HST - Gear was too much work and had no advantages"

HST owners/converts may very well love HST- great!!! But, by continually stating the party line of how HST is superior in every way, then that in turn leaves little doubt that "gear" must be inferior. Why would anyone want to buy an inferior product? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif The implication is that since "they (HST owners/converts) got smart", if you still drive (and HEAVEN FORBID like) a gear tractor, you lack the same intellectual mettle that they do.

The only "advantage" I can recall any "HST guy" advocating in a gear drive is price. Sure, this is a great advantage! Everyone likes to save money - but, it often goes hand-in-hand with all of the "advantages" of HST. Basically, the implication is if "You're poor, well, then at least there's SOMETHING for you." Intended? Depends on the individual I suppose.

I think when you put all of this together, it isn't hard to get back to the point I (and others) have tried to make - intended or not, the general implication of threads like this one is that HST is superior in every way and you either lack the mental strength or pocketbook to get a "real tractor" if you go gear. Some might refer to this as a "snobbish" attitude.

I'm sure nobody on this thread (or other threads) would characterize themselves as a "snob", and in their daily lives they may very well not fit such a mold. But words and impressions mean things too. If someone can't put themselves in "non-HST shoes" and see they point I'm trying to make, well, I won't go as far as to say that they should be characterized as such, but I will say it's unfortunate and they aren't as "open minded" as they may proclaim themselves to be.

Even though I own one of those pitiful off-brand, gear-box tractors, I have no problem with someone wanting/using HST - and yes - I've used HST myself. I will also state that some of the "facts" that have been thrown out as to HST advantages, I either "don't buy" or quite frankly, I know to be incorrect as I have seen differently with my own eyes. Does it matter which ones? Not really - just that I am going on record as not subscribing to some of the "facts" that have been stated which are really opinions. 'Course, that doesn't really matter, as that was not the point of this post.

I guess I'm now at risk of being stereotyped as one of those irrational/crazy/stupid/biased "gear guys." If you see fit to stereotype me that way, well in your own words, <font color=blue>"mark me down as a knuckle head and click right past my post."</font color=blue>

PS: By the way - I never questioned your honesty, just your approach and attitude.
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #146  
The added cost for an HST in a JD/Kubota/NH tractor must be ADDING something to it, hence BETTER. There is no need to argue that.
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #147  
Ranchman- Oh well, guess I was wrong. I'll let MChalkley do the analysis of HST from here on out, I still find his comments remarkable and well written. My experience with my geardrive and my HST will be for those that ask. To check out the post I mentioned, go to Calling all gearheads. I'll try and dig up the real eye opener about comments from "gearheads" regarding HST is for babies and do it yourselfers. Thats where perhaps who has the attitude of superiority is best defined. It was about 4 months ago or so.

My HST wish list

1. more ranges. I need a range between medium and high.
2. larger cooler for the hydraulic oil.
3. Fully automatic speed control with real ground speed readout.
4. Thats it!

Rat...
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #148  
Generic in nature is probably quite correct. I find those on tractors for the first time generally get into trouble with the loader. I suppose one could inadvertantly depress the HST peddle, especially one with little or no experience, but one could do the same with the accelerator pedal should they have one. Rat...
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #149  
<font color=blue>The added cost for an HST in a JD/Kubota/NH tractor must be ADDING something to it, hence BETTER. There is no need to argue that.</font color=blue>

So.... more $$$ = more product/more features = <font color=blue>BETTER</font color=blue> product?

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Hmmmm. Sorry, but I do not concur. Too many things I've experienced in life have proven to me that the old adage "you get what you pay for" doesn't always hold true - not by a long shot. I think some of the other posts in this thread already speak to the +'s & -'s on both transmission types, so I won't beat a dead horse and restate them.

Following your logic, I guess you believe that all cars should only have automatic transmissions then too, huh? I mean, less for the driver to do + higher cost ALWAYS equals "better" product, right? Who would ever want a stick shift in their car, right?

How about power windows? Bucket seats? Thermometer in the rear-view mirror? Chrome do-dads? The infamous "premium color" option? I mean, all this stuff must make the car a "better" one since they add cost, right???

Look, I agree, HST costs more, all other things being equal. However, where you saw the value of HST for your needs, I did not see the added value for my needs. Simple as that. No need to insult every other "Gear guy" saying that HST is "better" and there's "no need to argue that."

I fear you missed the entire point of my last post...../w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif
 
   / Buying a first Tractor; HST or not? #150  
You know Ranchman, of all the things that concerned me most about HST, durability was my top concern, how is this thing going to hold up, especially since I don't baby much of anything. I did what investigating I could to answer this question. My Kubota/JD dealer and my Kubota/ NH dealer both reported great results with Kubota. To them, Kubota offered perhaps the most reliable product with regards to HST. After that, they for the most part did not push any brand more then the other with regards to a manual type transmission. Time will tell as the hydrostatic transmission is relatively new. I think some of the first tractors with it were in the 70's. Contrary to whats been said here, the HST cost less then the GST on the Kubota L4610 which is what I almost purchased.
 

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