Buying used? Check for liens

[Tornado]

Quote:
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Do you really think that JD is the only tractor manufacturer that would pursue this course of action? Get real.
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Just because JD pursues a certain course of action doesn't make it any less bad if other companies do it as well.

Lemmings?....

David

 

[Inspector507]

I'm sure that almost every tractor that is bought on credit has a clause in the financing paperwork that says they can come get the unit it if YOU do not pay for it in their terms.
JD has not done anything out of the ordinary, any lender would do the same. Their first course of action is to gain control over the item they have a security interest in, no matter where it is.

 

[Tornado]

Inspector507.

I agree that JD could come and get the tractor if I didn't pay for it. In fact, I would invite them to come and get it if I couldn't pay for it. The criminal should be in jail. The innocent party should either receive his funds back or get to keep the tractor.

The contract was between the criminal and JD.

I would love to get my $5,441.82 back from the criminal that sold me goods that I never received (that was half payment up front). I have chased him all over the place. My antenna tower was sold to someone else. I am sure as heck not going to go and find "my tower" and take it from some other poor slob. I WOULD put this guy in jail and leave him there if it were possible.

Having said that, it is MY fault for not making the transaction more secure. It isn't the guy's fault that got my equipment. He payed for it too.
At least he got something for his money. I got nothing. I hate that JD lost money to a criminal. The innocent guy here is not at fault.

A title system for farm equipment might be a good starting place to thwart such crimes. Taking money from an innocent man is a crime in and of itself.

This is my opinion of right and wrong. your mileage may vary.
David

 

[Inspector507]

JD did go about it the legal way though, by putting it in the paperwork and possibly filing a UCC. I feel bad for the guy who bought the tractor, don't get me wrong, but JD has a legal leg (if not 2) to stand on in this case.
They are just exercising their rights afforded to them by law.

 

[jfdlaw]

Guys,

I'm not saying Deere is bad. I like Deere and their equipment. I started this thread to alert other users that they have to be careful buying used. The problem here is a UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) system that is hard for the lay person to use and is subject to abuse. I think most people do not understand they have to search public records to find out if there is a lien, and that no matter how good a search they do, there still may be a lien that could ruin their day.

This matter is a good example. Deere filed their lien in the county where this guy lived when he bought the tractor. The deadbeat gave the buyer another address in another county when he sold it. The original UCC was not discoverable by searching the records for the address he gave the buyer. I guess you need to search whereever the guy used to live.

The message in this is be careful, do your homework and understand the risks. You buy used to save some money, understand that that savings come with some risks.

If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

 

[Junkman]

The quick and easy way to protect yourself is to contact the manufacturer and give them the serial number of the unit. They will tell you if there is a lien on the unit if they financed it. You could also find the selling dealer and ask them to check their files for any paperwork that might give you the information where to look for a lien. They will not give you any other information, but that alone is sufficient to know that you have to pay both the seller and the financial institution.
I recently purchased a piece of real estate and found that there is a Federal lien on the property by the U.S. Government for back taxes of the seller. The seller said that the taxes were paid in full many years ago, and the government agency that filed the lien has no record of it at this point. The lien is 25 years old and all records are either lost or no longer available. The government stated that it will take a while, but they will be sending a lien release to be recorded. My attorney has told me that the new Government liens expire after a certain time frame and that if the debt isn't paid by then, that they will either file a new lien or they will abandon it as noncollectable. Back when this lien was paid off, a release of lien was sent to the debtor, but he never recorded it. When I paid off my mortgage, I had to record the release of lien. Usually, it is up to the owner of the property to record the release of the lien, because there is a fee involved in most instances and the person holding the lien, doesn't want to pay it.

 

[jfdlaw]

Junkman - I wouldn't solely rely on the dealer. For one reason, they will only know if they were involved with the financing. If the buyer financed it elsewhere they may not know. Secondly you are counting on them keeping their records and accessing them years later. Warranty records can be different from the records for the sale. Thirdly they may not tell you for fear of violating the federal privacy regulations regarding loans. Check with the dealer AND check the county and state records. Try to get the original address of the seller from the dealer so that you can search for a lien record in that county.

 

[zuiko]

It's like if you buy stolen merchandise. You may not have known it was stolen but you are still SOL if the real owner finds it and wants it back. The fault is with the crook not the legitimate owner (JD). What if the tractor was stolen off a dealer's lot? Or from someone's machine shed? It's one of the perils of buying anything used.

A friend of the crook could buy all of his secured posessions for $1 a piece right before he declared bankrupcy. If the creditor was just out of luck since it changed hands that kind of scam would be very commonplace. That's where the fair market value stuff comes in.

 

[herefromthere]

Does anyone have a start point or recommendations on where to start the lien search process in WA state?

If one wanted to purchase a tractor from someone who had an outstanding balance, what is the best way to protect oneself? Would an escrow company be willing to handle the process for a fee? (hopefully less $ than for real estate transactions!) I envision something like the whole waiver or release of lien for subcontracters on a property. If so, would the financing arms of the manufacturers be willing to work with a buyer on this? Any additional thoughts are welcome.

Thanks in advance!

 

[bp fick]

Does anyone have a start point or recommendations on where to start the lien search process in WA state?

If one wanted to purchase a tractor from someone who had an outstanding balance, what is the best way to protect oneself? Would an escrow company be willing to handle the process for a fee? (hopefully less $ than for real estate transactions!) I envision something like the whole waiver or release of lien for subcontracters on a property. If so, would the financing arms of the manufacturers be willing to work with a buyer on this? Any additional thoughts are welcome.

Thanks in advance!

Buying cars, tractors, boats, etc from sellers who have liens doesn't need to be that difficult. If they buyer is financed with Kubota Credit, for example, you simply contact Kubota Credit, with the account # provided you by the seller, clear the lien and you're good to go.

If the tractor is financed through a local bank or credit union, the seller must provide that information and agree for you to contact the bank, or meet you there to clear it.

Thousands and thousands of cars are sold every day with liens that get cleared. Granted, tractors aren't always as straightforward, but should be. If it is a major color, from a major tractor acceptance company, this should not be that difficult. Bank wires move at the speed of light.

Perhaps someone from Washington will give you guidance as to the registry of liens in your area and how to make that contact. OH, and welcome to TBN.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Check here

https://fortress.wa.gov/dol/ucc/Default.aspx

David Kb7uns

 

[greasemonkeyok]

To expand on the above post, for Washington you can search the seller's name online:

WA State Licensing: Uniform Commercial Code (UCC)

That may not be 100% safe, but it would be the minimum. For other states, try Googeling the state name and "UCC central filing." Consulting an attorney is a good idea because teh UCC is not uniform from state to state according to Wikipedia.

 

[johnrex62]

I guess the simplest way to keep from being stuck is to require a receipt or paid statement from the seller showing the item was paid off before turning over money.

I know I have my original purchase documents on my tractor and when it is paid off I will have the paperwork from Kubota showing a zero balance. If I ever decide to sell my tractor instead of being buried with it, I will have that to hand over at the sale.

 

[herefromthere]

Thanks everyone. Appears that the WA DOL site is a search by name only setup, so there are several ways things might not show up or an unscrupulous seller could get around that. Seems really bass-ackwards to have the collateral be the financed item (ie: tractor) yet the required search criteria is the owner's name. Talk about a system designed to fail. It would make much more sense to have the collateral be the thing registered and searchable, since that's the security interest regardless of who has posession. I have no issue with the financed item being the collateral and that surviving different owners, but if it is, then that's what should be registered and searchable! Ok, I'll step off the soapbox now.

If buying a used tractor, then I'll have to allow for the risk of missing something like that, I guess. However, I will try to get as much documentation as possible and search the DOL and check the serial # with the appropriate dealer/manufacturer's finacing arm. I like the idea of buying from an owner who has receipts, including the payoff documentation. One of the tractors I was considering still has a balance, so if I bought it, I'd have to have faith in the current owner to pay it off. Sucks that it has to be such a crap shoot.

Buying new avoids this issue, but yikes, the sticker shock dang near knocked me out!

 

[bp fick]

If buying a used tractor, then I'll have to allow for the risk of missing something like that, I guess. However, I will try to get as much documentation as possible and search the DOL and check the serial # with the appropriate dealer/manufacturer's finacing arm. I like the idea of buying from an owner who has receipts, including the payoff documentation. One of the tractors I was considering still has a balance, so if I bought it, I'd have to have faith in the current owner to pay it off. Sucks that it has to be such a crap shoot.

Buying new avoids this issue, but yikes, the sticker shock dang near knocked me out!

Does not have to be a crap shoot at all. No trust either, verify.
The money does NOT go to the seller. The bulk of the money gets wired directly to the lien holder, the tractor financing arm, most likely.

Trust has little to do with it. Just take care of business. Dealers take in tractors with liens everyday. Folks sell boats and cars with liens everyday. Just realize you are REALLY dealing with finance corporation more than you are the seller. The finance arm is the true owner. The seller only "owns" the equity balance and that's all the money he should ever see.

 

[hosspuller]

It's like if you buy stolen merchandise. You may not have known it was stolen but you are still SOL if the real owner finds it and wants it back. The fault is with the crook not the legitimate owner (JD). What if the tractor was stolen off a dealer's lot? Or from someone's machine shed? It's one of the perils of buying anything used.

This post sums the issue well. It is NOT Deere or any other manufacturer. The seller is a crook. He stole the machine from Deere. The OP is warning us about buying things not covered by a registered title

I thank the OP for the warning. I never thought about a lien before when buying equipement from individuals.

 

[qstott]

I saw an ad on the local Craigs List for a JD 4320. The guy lived aout 30 miles away. I went to look at it, and he was in the field using it at the time. I was interested, but it had a lot of hours. He told me he ordered it, just like he wanted, from the dealer brand new. At the time he was living in Florida and in the landscaping business.

I got the serial number from the tractor, and called my buddy at the local JD dealer to check on the warranty history and such. He told me the tractor was sold new in Georgia, not Florida, and the registered owner was not the guy I was talking to. All kinds of flags popped up. I just just see buying a tractor in NC, sold in Georgia to one guy, from a different guy that said he bought it in Florida.

My buddy gave me the name of the original owner. I googled his name, and found he was part owner in a landscape business. I called him up and said, "I'm looking at buying a tractor in NC, that a guy says he bought new, but you are registered as the owner. Are you missing a tractor?"

The fellow says, "No I'm not missing a tractor. The tractor belongs to him. His credidt was not as good as mine, and we were in a landscaping business as partners. I took out the loan in my name, even though he has paid all the payments on it."

So, the tractor was bought in Georgia, just across the state line from Florida, financed in one fellows name, but paid for by the guy that had moved back home in NC.

The deal was legit, but I was very nervous until I got the whole story. It turns out, I decided to hold out for a cab tractor anyway.