Can all tractors flip over easy?

[Bentrim]

As an old once young farm kid that was operating tractors too soon to realize the dangers of them.
The row crop tractors we had were all of the tricycle configuration. Simply because they were high enough to go over growing crops, and they used mounted equipment such as cultivators and corn pickers. Also note it was easier to turn at the end of the field because the axle did not stick out and hit a tree or the fence row. If you notice most row crop tractors built in the 30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's were built as tricycles. As you would think most of these were used for tillage and other work across the slope NOT up and down, reason it was determined that you had more erosion and loss of top soil when ground was worked up and down the slope.
Having been raised on a farm and operating tractors I was very aware of how to prepare and operate tractors across the slope.
The utility tractor most always had a wide front end AND like for example the 8N ford was a much lower tractor. They raked the hay and other utility work.
Most all work was done without any precaution as to wheel spacing etc. Even plowing on a steep slope with the lower wheel in the eight inch furrow was not a problem. But when needing to mow extremely steep slopes the wheels were made wide as possible. Note that most "modern" subcompact and compact tractors have very limited rear wheel width adjustment and are usually fairly narrow, even though they are low they are not very stable on hillsides.
In the early 60's de to the narrow rows and other needs wide front ends became more popular now you cannot find a new tricycle tractor. Also about this time manufacturers started being concerned with safety and started manufacturing roll bars. Even the old "tin" cabs got replaced with cabs that had integrated roll bars.
Most tractor accidents are caused by carelessness or operator error, such as going too fast, turning too short, loader too high, hitching too high, traveling to fast with the brakes uneven, not knowing the terrain you are working on, and I'm sure you can add more.
By the way Harry Ferguson was tired of hearing about farmers killed when the tractor rolled backwards, that is why he invented the three point hitch. When used correctly it is very hard to roll a tractor using a three point hitch.
Tractor safety is all about the "nut" behind the wheel. If you have any question how to do something safely read the operators manual and the safety brochure that accompanies it or visit an old farm equipment dealer. In the mean time remember to hitch up to only the drawbar, or three point hitch, travel slowly, know the ground you are operating on, and keep the loader bucket low. If you feel you need a roll bar search the web, there a companies that make them for just about any tractor.
Oh by the way there is no machine on wheels that can't be upset, Z turns, lawn tractors, garden tractors, If it has a foldable roll bar -- get it up, if it doesn't have one check out getting one if you want.
But no matter what THINK SAFETY.

 

[MossRoad]

That would be true if both axles were rigidly connected. But every wide-front tractor I've ever used has the front axle jointed so that on uneven ground it isn't constanly trying to twist the machine.

You think Penn State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Indiana, Nebraska, etc. studies are all incorrect?

How about this one?

http://libraryarchives.metro.net/DPGTL/cdc-centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention/1996-trac-safe-program-for-reducing-injuries-deaths-due-to-tractor-overturns-facilitators-manual.pdf

 

[JWR]

I thought about buying an older tractor like an 8N, but then I started reading about them flipping over. I'm sure you can use common sense be pretty safe, but I got to thinking that maybe all tractors could flip? Was looking for advice on safety. I was thinking I probably need a sub compact now because they look safer, but I could be fooling myself.

It for plowing new ground with stumps and roots, mostly the leftover roots.

Edit: I have no experience with tractors, if you couldn't tell.

I am not going to read the 61 posts so far on this thread.

I have no idea what "It for plowing new ground with stumps and roots, mostly the leftover roots." means. Did you explain in one of the 61 posts ?

• Restart by telling us what you plan/need to do with a tractor. The 4 or 5 main things.
• Do you need to operate on steep ground? If not, forget flipping.
• Unless you plan to do extreme heavy pulling of something using a towing point on the tractor way above the drawbar, rear flipping is so obscure and unlikely you can forget that.
• No tractor, new or used on the market today, is likely enough to flip over for you to be using that for a buying criteria.
• The 8N is far less likely to flip over than most new tractors on the market --- if that matters which it does not.

 

[newbury]

I think I might not need a tractor then. I've been looking at the BCS walk-behind, but tractors seemed like they could do any kind of plowing. I was wrong.

But that may kill this valuable thread of arguments!!
And it hasn't even hit 100 posts!
OP - If you can accomplish your work with a walk behind, go for it, My Grandfather "farmed" about a full acre of garden, 2 acres of orchard and a 20 acre woodlot with a '70's era Gravely. Including lots of snow plowing and blowing in Northern Vermont. And that was without a sulky. He did have a small trailer with a seat.

 

[JWR]

No they are not.

Oh yes they are. Once the front axle reaches the stop outboard of the pivot point (during a roll axis movement) the front wheel becomes an outrigger (FAR further out to the side than a tricycle front wheel.) Obviously tricycle tractors are more vulnerable to tipping over. The OP and his issues are not relevant to rolling tractors in the first place.

 

[nyone]

I wonder what happens with fluid filled tires in a rollover. It would seem that the momentum of the fluid might help flip a tractor over onto its top where it might have been just a roll on to its side.

No. Fluid is always at the bottom and the portion of the tire above the rim at the top dosnt have liquid in it so the weight below may actualy help rather than hurt.

 

[JWR]

No. Fluid is always at the bottom and the portion of the tire above the rim at the top dosnt have liquid in it so the weight below may actualy help rather than hurt.

Oh dear... Npalen was right. Depending on how suddenly the tractor rolls the fluid could become a factor. Initially the fluid helps to lower the CG. But once this becomes a dynamics problem roll rate, time, etc. become involved. The fluid certainly does not stay in the bottom of the tire once some amount of movement occurs and establishes the momentum npalen mentioned.. This becomes a complex dynamics problem with many variables. My opinion is that ,in the progress of a rollover, the fluid will never matter because by the time it MIGHT matter the catastrophe has already gone beyond the point of no return and the machine has upset.

 

[npalen]

No. Fluid is always at the bottom and the portion of the tire above the rim at the top dosnt have liquid in it so the weight below may actualy help rather than hurt.

Yes, the fluid is at the bottom but what happens when the tractor suddenly rolls on to its side? The weight of the fluid is suddenly thrown to the downhill side of the tire and its inertia would seemingly tend to roll the tractor over on its top.

Edit: Its a similar scenario as what happens when a tank full of liquid is being transported. Trying to slow or stop the vehicle slams the liquid to the front making it difficult to stop. Adding a baffle(s) to the the tank will minimize the effect.

 

[IndyJay]

Yes, the fluid is at the bottom but what happens when the tractor suddenly rolls on to its side? The weight of the fluid is suddenly thrown to the downhill side of the tire and its inertia would seemingly tend to roll the tractor over on its top.

Edit: Its a similar scenario as what happens when a tank full of liquid is being transported. Trying to slow or stop the vehicle slams the liquid to the front making it difficult to stop. Adding a baffle(s) to the the tank will minimize the effect.

Same principle as a dead blow hammer.

 

[JasperFrank]

I like the that old film about momentum. Kind of the key to do things safely. Go slow, and you lessen momentum, so you can correct it before it goes out of hand. It is my opinion, that on the Ford 1220s with the standard 7106 FEL put the center of gravity very high: Maybe too high. But that's just one make and model of CUT tractor. You will note that more modern tractors have their mounting points much lower on the frame to lower the CG.

Unless you can articulate the ride height, this will always be a problem and a compromise of ground clearance and working on hills.

 

[npalen]

Oh dear... Npalen was right. Depending on how suddenly the tractor rolls the fluid could become a factor. Initially the fluid helps to lower the CG. But once this becomes a dynamics problem roll rate, time, etc. become involved. The fluid certainly does not stay in the bottom of the tire once some amount of movement occurs and establishes the momentum npalen mentioned.. This becomes a complex dynamics problem with many variables. My opinion is that ,in the progress of a rollover, the fluid will never matter because by the time it MIGHT matter the catastrophe has already gone beyond the point of no return and the machine has upset.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had already posted the above when I posted. I think you're right about the dynamics involved particularly the point in time that the sloshing liquid hits the downhill side of the "top" tire. My take is that the liquid weight and resulting inertia may make the difference between whether the tractor ends up on its side or continues to roll downhill on to its top.

I can also envision that the height of the loader could make a difference. The advice to always carry a load as low as possible is good to prevent rollover. But what happens if the tractor does start to roll and the loader is down low? The "low" loader will make it easier for the tractor to continue rolling on to its top. A loader in the "high" position would tend to make it more difficult for the tractor to continue rolling. Pick your poison?

 

[Liquidsilver]

...and there are how many row tractors (tricycle) on the market today?

Correct. The pivot on the front axle limits the yaw far before the point-of-no-return on a row tractor... but those were made for a purpose.

I think the answer to the original poster's question is yes, all tractors will flip over easy... depending on what you're doing with it. That's why the computer behind the steering wheel needs to be turned on.

 

[npalen]

i like the that old film about momentum. Kind of the key to do things safely. Go slow, and you lessen momentum, so you can correct it before it goes out of hand.

I agree with what you're saying but I don't necessarily think that the speed at which the tractor rolls is determined by the forward speed prior to the rollover. I would think that the height of the center of gravity and the incline would determine the roll rate.

 

[IndyJay]

I agree with what you're saying but I don't necessarily think that the speed at which the tractor rolls is determined by the forward speed prior to the rollover. I would think that the height of the center of gravity and the incline would determine the roll rate.

The speed of the rollover will be determined by the speed of the inertia shift which, at the point of center of gravity, precipitated the rollover.

 

[jeff9366]

Tractors seemed like they could do any kind of plowing. I was wrong.

The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Tractor capability is more closely correlated to tractor weight than any other single (1) specification. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

When considering a tractor purchase bare tractor weight first, tractor horsepower second, rear axle width third (for stability under load), rear wheel/tire ballast fourth (partly for stability under load).

 

[npalen]

The speed of the rollover will be determined by the speed of the inertia shift which, at the point of center of gravity, precipitated the rollover.

What factors determine the speed of the inertia shift?

 

[JasperFrank]

You buy a tri-tractor if you live in Kansas. The Tri-pod
1943 John deer was an accident waiting to happen.

And don't know how many people remember belts, which for some reason we still used to power other stuff in the 70s. Big, flippy belt that could come off any time and kill you.


The John Deer we had was completely a bad choice to the rolling hills of Maryland. In an event, My first question was, did you get hurt,.... after its many rollovers. Luck be it, that no one got hurt. They jumped out. I did get tired of pulling it out off its side. It was a stupid machine for my Grand Father to have bought in the first place to work 9 degree hills. A farm hand often said, "Don't ask me to run the JD." Three other tractors available with quad stances that can do the same thing better. If they ask, its the way to go.

My Dad still kept running this tractor on the slopes. I don't know what his point was as it also tuned over to the side a few times. So this tractor got retired, after his death, and sold off to a collector for a hell of a lot of money.

 

[IndyJay]

What factors determine the speed of the inertia shift?

Rapid change of direction. Can be from turning too quickly or suddenly dropping a tire into rut or hitting a bump while at or near balanced at center of gravity. Like when my buddy was loading a tractor onto a low boy using wooden planks and using brakes for steering. I watched as one of the boards kept scooting back each time be let out the clutch. I hollered for him to stop, he just looked over at it and kept inching up. When he finally got the rear wheels on the trailer there was less than on inch of the board still on the trailer. If it had scooted just a little more it would have perfectly demonstrated a very quick shift in inertia.

 

[DutchInNZ]

There were tractors specially made for steep inclines in wineries on mountains by e.g. Holder and an Italian company. They had a very low centre of gravity and the steering was by a hydraulic link in the middle, between the front and the back frames. The Holder A45 is one of those and they claimed in their folders that they can do angles up to 45 degrees, sideways or up/down. The centre of gravity is so low that, if it gets steeper, they just start sliding downwards.

 

[TerryR]

Your drawing is right to some degree but you’re ignoring the fact that the front axel has stops.

Not ignoring them, but accounting for the fact that they don't come into play until you have already rolled a bit, and you may well have enough momentum by then to go on over, especially on a side hill situation.