Tractor flip overs and wheelie bars

[flusher]

The discussion is pulling something with a tractor and using a 3pt implement as a wheelie bar instead of attaching the chain to the proper point lower than the centerline of the rear axle.

3pt hitches do not have "power down". If they did, we could raise the rear end of the tractor up off the ground by lowering the 3pt hitch. There is nothing holding the implement down but gravity. Yes, there is a maximum upward travel to the 3 pt arms. However, that travel is much farther than most of us realize. Let's try it.

Hook up a box blade to a 3pt hitch. Back up to an unmovable stump. Drop the box blade to within one inch of the ground. Hook a chain to the stump and run it over or under the box blade. Doesn't matter. Hook it to a point on the rear of the tractor higher than the centerline of the axle. Rev up the tractor and take off. As soon as the chain tightens and the tires grip, the front of the tractor will launch skyward because there is nothing holding the box blade down. The tractor will rotate until the maximum travel of the 3pt arms is reached. My guess is the tractor will be at an angle greater than 45 degrees in less that 1/2 second. I base this on what I have read on several reports on tractor roll overs and most agree that it only takes 3/4 of a second to go completely vertical. At that point, most operators will be in "poop your pants" mode. Not many folks (myself included) would have the skills to quickly react properly at that angle. Maybe the implement will keep it from going over the rest of the way. Maybe the top link will snap or bend and over you go.

The point is, pulling should be done by attaching to the proper place below the centerline of the rear axle always. No exceptions. If we hook up properly, we won't need wheelie bars.

OK, let's say I get my 1966 MF-135 diesel out of the garage and hook my 6-ft wide offset drag disk to the swinging drawbar. What are the risks with this hookup of a flip over should the disc become stuck due to a rock, root or other piece of buried junk? Is the drawbar hookup completely reliable so a flip over cannot happen? BTW: regardless of the answer, I plan to get a ROPS installed on the 135 before trying any of this heavy duty ground engagement work with that tractor.

When I hook a double bottom plow to the MF-135 3pt and operate in draft mode, same question if the plow gets stuck: what are the chances of a flip over in this case?

 

[Soundguy]

Thanks for making my point. if the 3pt lift arms limit the travel to arounf 45.. then the tractor never reaches vertical. That's the point I was trying to make... the 3pt implement -does- tend to act like a wheelie bar.

I never said the front wouldn't come off the ground. I -DID- say that it would, and thatt he amount it did would be based ont he lenght rearward of the 3pt implement.

I never implied the 3pt had down pressure.. it doesn't nned it anyway... the lift arms will max out in travel with or without down pressure. ( by the way... a few 3pt mechanisms.. DO have down pressure.. but for arguments sake.. i wasn't refering to those.. )

Also.. as i mentioned.. there is applicable reference in the ford owners manual dealing with this very subject.. rear flip, and the safety factor that a properly connected 3pt implement helps to offer.

Soundguy

, the front of the tractor will launch skyward because there is nothing holding the box blade down. The tractor will rotate until the maximum travel of the 3pt arms is reached. My guess is the tractor will be at an angle greater than 45 degrees in less that 1/2 second. I base this on what I have read on several reports on tractor roll overs and most agree that it only takes 3/4 of a second to go completely vertical. .

 

[Soundguy]

There is a difference in drag implements, and 3pt implements.. however.. if you used your swinging drawbar, then your drag implement is attached at a point lower than your axle.

A properly attached 3pt implement should -help- limit a rear flip. The size, shape, and rear-ward length of the implement, length of lower lift arms , and max travel they can make, along with toplink length will determine the max angle the tractor can flip back to, befor ethe implement is held in compression tot he ground, betwen the ground and the tractor.

I'd say that -NOTHING- is completely reliable... not even a rops... ( get one anyway.. every bit helps ).

Soundguy

OK, let's say I get my 1966 MF-135 diesel out of the garage and hook my 6-ft wide offset drag disk to the swinging drawbar. What are the risks with this hookup of a flip over should the disc become stuck due to a rock, root or other piece of buried junk? Is the drawbar hookup completely reliable so a flip over cannot happen? BTW: regardless of the answer, I plan to get a ROPS installed on the 135 before trying any of this heavy duty ground engagement work with that tractor.

When I hook a double bottom plow to the MF-135 3pt and operate in draft mode, same question if the plow gets stuck: what are the chances of a flip over in this case?

 

[BTDT]

Some people need to hire out the work. I suggested a mercury type switch to shut off engine on a certain percent slope (electronic slope meter) at one time , but folks thought that was a crazy idea. Same thing could be done for this but I'm afraid with same negative responses. If front of tractor came up past certain percent or degree of slope, engine could be shut down. Then after resetting and re-assessing your situation, you could restart and be on your way again.

 

[BXRICK]

I think there are two differing opinions on the use/need for a wheelie bar.
1. Soundguy's thinking is to have something to prevent the catstrophic flipover.
2. Others are looking at a wheelie bar as a "completely safe" way to tow something with nothing happening.

In other words, the first approach may still cause a poop-your-pants moment, but you don't die. The second approach means you may barely realize the tractor wanted to flip.

My suspicion on the drag implements is that in most cases, if the implement hangs up (snags a root, for instance), traction is lost, and the flipover never happens. This effect would be even greater if traction was only available in 4wd, and once the front wheels come up even a bit, they aren't helping. The rear wheels just spin in the dirt at that point.
It's likely it's possible to cause a flipover, but you would have to overcome the effect of the implement (you'd have to bend something back there either on the hitch or implement) while maintaining traction. And, if it's a ground engaging implement, traction is likely not very good.

I think it's assumed that once a flipover starts, you'll be off the throttle. The wheelie bar doesn't have to counteract the flipover for very long - really, it just needs to bounce it back.

The 3pt hitch wants to keep the implement at the angle it's set to, which creates a fairly solid wheelie bar. This is different than, say, a chain attached above the axle. The chain can bend (handy, in fact...), so nothing is preventing the flipover.

 

[Soundguy]

The 3pt hitch wants to keep the implement at the angle it's set to, which creates a fairly solid wheelie bar. This is different than, say, a chain attached above the axle. The chain can bend (handy, in fact...), so nothing is preventing the flipover.

Actually.. the 3pt will float up till it hits max lift.. then it will stop... Still .. same end result.. the tractor most likely can't flip all the way over.. or even near verticle.. Yes.. deffinately a soil-the-pants issue.

I think a drag implement will not even produce as big a rise on the fron if the swinging drawbar is used. it's under the axle, and once the drag hitch 'grounds'.. well.. the front can't go much further up..

And as stated before.. I don't hink anything is 100% safe or reliable.

I've seen people killed with a tractor with a fops structure..

Soundguy

 

[BXRICK]

I didn't state what I meant quite right.
I totally agree it will float up. I just meant it will stay at the same angle relative to the ground. So, if it's parallel to the ground when on the ground, it will also be parallel to the ground when up - or darn close. The top link forces this.
Which means, after the tractor flips its front up, the implement is still sticking out at the same angle relative to the tractor, and is a relatively effective wheelie bar as you stated. This is much different than a chain hitched to the same points.
Anyway, I think we're all in agreement.

 

[Mgray]

There is a difference in drag implements, and 3pt implements.. however.. if you used your swinging drawbar, then your drag implement is attached at a point lower than your axle.
Soundguy

I have seen this mentioned a few times in this post and attaching to a point lower than the height of your rear axle is the most important part. It also keeps your front wheels on the ground so you may be able to get a little extra pull from them too if it is four wheel drive. I was trying to pull a stump out of the ground that I thought I had gotten all of the biggest roots cut. I had not gotten enough of the roots cut and I actually spun the tires in place for a second.

 

[orezok]

I agree that connecting a load below the axle line will reduce the tendency to rotate about the rear axle, but it will not eliminate it. Suppose you had no load attached to the back of the tractor but the rear wheels were frozen to the ground. When you applied power, the tractor would rotate around the rear axle (wheelie). Attachment above the axle line increases torque, attachment below reduces torque but does not eliminate it.

The distance below the axle the attachment is made will reduce the torque factor by a ratio of distance below divided by tire radius or about 10% to 15%.

 

[Soundguy]

That's why farmers REVERSE their tractor out of the barn in freezing weather..

Soundguy