Can anyone post some pictures of hills

   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #31  
Superduper said:
Two things I would like to chime in on. Firstly, most all newer tractors will comply with one of two specifications: ANSI B71.1 and ANSI B71.4. The former for consumer equipment and the latter for commercial equipment. If you own a small garden tractor, then it probably complies with the former and if you own a CUT, it is probably the latter. The difference is that B71.1 specifies minimum lateral stability of 25 degrees measured at rollover, while B71.4 specifies 20 degrees measured by pulling out test strip (don't ask as I don't know what this means). There is more, of course to the ANSI specification, but this is as far as it is addressed regarding lateral stability. Asking what degree slope is safe is not a good question as this can vary greatly from equipment to equipment, and configuration to configuration. For example, the same tractor can normally be ordered with R1 tires, or R4 tires. Your stability with R1 mounted in a "narrow" configuration for crop row clearance will be much reduced than the same tractor with R4 tires mounted at widest position. Furthermore, as you've already gathered by the other posts, each person's pucker factor varies greatly, just as people's tolerance of heights can vary greatly. The lack of fear doesn't necessarily mean that the situation is safer, merely that one can better cope with it. Also, the longer you mow slopes, the more accustomed you get to it, and this can lead to complacency and misplaced confidence, just as you can be overly cautious when first operating it. Don't get me wrong, the pucker factor is a good thing because it will definitely motivate you to operate at a more cautious and attentive level.

Secondly, the triangle description is an excellent explanation but can be hard to picture. The attached pdf file addresses tractor overturn hazards and center of gravity. Page 2 shows an excellent illustration regarding what point the center of gravity is overcome and tips the tractor. As you can see by the illustration, the tractor that is at the verge of tipping is really tilted quite dramatically and most everyone will admit that they never operate their equipment anywhere close to this angle of operation. Certainly, at the illustrated angle, the operator will have great difficulty just maintaining his rear on the seat and probably needs to hang on dearly. The illustration does show that the center of gravity for the depicted tractor is at a point just above the rear axle. Say we raise the CG for safety sake to a point between the two rear reflectors. Even with that, you can see that the tractor can still be tilted quite dramatically to be well within safe limits. However, as in previous contributions, it is extremely important to operate slowly so as not to introduce dynamic centrifugal forces that can increase the negative effects of center of gravity. Also, operating at the verge of tilt is definitely a no-no as there will be no margin for unexpected ruts and other real life challenges.

Now, if we examine the pictures of the Kubota and NH tractors sitting on the slopes and draw an imaginary vertical line from the center of the headlamps to the ground, we see that the point that the line would contact the ground is well inside of the outside edge of the tires and it would appear that the tractors are well within the level of safe operation. In reality, the center of gravity is probably lower than the headlamps as the headlamps are probably already at the top of the engine, and there is a lot of weight below that point. The low profile of the kubota in particular shows that there is significantly greater room for tilt before getting tippy. Note however, that both operators indicate that their pucker factor is kicking into high gear.

Finally, I was wondering whether someone could comment on whether they feel the attached image depicts a slope that could be easily traversed with their tractor, and a brief description of their tractor?

Mornin Superduper,
Excellent post !!! And thanks for putting fact and physics into a practical application and or approach on tractor operation on hillsides :)
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #32  
johnk said:
The .pdf is a php and I can't load it. The file name is .php. Interesting article so far but I'd also like to open that PDF,,,,,,,Check it out....Thanks...
I have noticed that the attachment will not open properly when using netscape browser, but opens correctly when using internet explorer. The fact that other viewers have successfully viewed the document suggests that the choice of browser is probably the difference. if you are not using internet explorer or are unable to view the pdf file, you can go directly here:

http://home.pacbell.net/normanwc/tractor_overturn_hazards_2.pdf

If the link does not work, copy and paste into your browser to download it. Hope this solves the problem.
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #33  
JimParker said:
I used to be a helicopter instructor pilot, and two things I learned doing that dangerous activity also apply to operating a tractor on a slope.
"


Very good description of what is going on, both the physics and the psychology. Surely you must have significant fixed wing time! Not that a rotor head couldn't think like that but... it was so complete, clear, and consise!!!

For anyone who may have glossed over it... read this man's comments a couple times, there is a lof of RIGHT INFO there!!

Comment for SUPERDUPER, Get FireFox!

Also of interest is the transferability of the applicability of...

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are very few OLD BOLD pilots. Same with equipment operators and machines like tractors.

Also comes to mind, Mind thy airspeed lest the ground arise and smite thee!

For tractor drivers... Mind thy tilt angle lest the ground arise and smite thee!

Pat
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #34  
The PDF file popped up fine for me at 4:15 EDT.

The picture looks like most of my ground, but I have a lot more trees. My ground is basically a 4/12 pitch. In winter when the leaves are gone, I can see the roof of my pole barn/sheep shed coming in from the north and it's essentially the same slope as the hill.

I usually move around on slopes about like the area in the red oval without much concern, but the area to the immediate right is somewhere I would fear to traverse. I'm running a Case DX29 with 900 lb on the hitch and 130 lb on each rear wheel plus 215 lb of me in the seat. I have the Ag tires set as wide as they could put them, but overal width is around 60 inches. I traverse things slow with the bucket low, and get REALLY slow when I can't see the ground for the underbrush etc. I have found that even angling uphill with a heavy load of manure (thanks to the grapple I can load about twice what I could scoop up) can cause the uphill rear to lift when the fronts cross a change of terrain such as the edge of a swale/gully. Angling downhill is just plain scary sometimes, but again going very slowly helps me keep in touch with what's going on with the vehicle dynamics and affords the opportunity to back out as needed.. Thank You HST!
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #35  
Suttles,

As has been pointed out very well, each tractor and land situation is different. That being said I can mow on slopes approaching 20 degrees going very, very, very slowly. It helps substantially that I know every dip and bump since this is a lawn I planted. I never attempt this in fields or land I am not familiar with. In those situations 15 degrees is the absolute maximum. See pic 1 below for an area near the bottom of a slope of about 15 deg. Pic 2 is a little further up at about 20 deg and pic 4 shows the tilt meter for reference running near the upper shot.

Before this summer I would not think about cutting across these slopes until a local farmer who has hundreds of times more experience cut our grass while we were gone. When I got home I felt he was nuts for trying this. They have a couple of big old Oliver's and two White tractors. The land down the slope gets a good bit steeper than this. After talking to him he convinced me that it was possible at the right angle across if done safely. If I do not approach it right I can feel it and back out. But done correctly it saves about 3/4 hour of mowing time and only feels a little concerning. I should also say what is obvious but I never mow/travel cross steep slopes when the ground is wet, the grass even damp from dew, or the ground very hard from no rain. All of these affect the ability to get lateral traction even the very dry and hard ground. Learned this the hard way and took a ride into the corn last summer..

I would STRONGLY suggest that you not try to get to this point unless you and your equipment are set up for this. I have a NH TC33DA with loaded (a little over 50%) Titan Multi-Trac C/S Turf Tires dished out and a mid mount mower that rides on spring suspension so it actually helps to lower the CG since the tractor carries it's 550# down really low. The Titan turfs have proved to give very good grip in out soft farm soil.

This combined with my big butt hugging the uphill fender makes for a fair slope mower. For those who feel that does not make a difference where you set, I contribute a little under 10% to the weight of the total machine/operator weight. So move 10% of the weight 10" moves the CG 1", etc. It may only be a little but looking at it the other way and let your but slide down against the down hill fender and the total difference is 2" on a 29" horizontal dist to the outside wheel (58" wide stance) with a 26”+ distance to the point of rotation and the movement is 8% +/-.
 

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   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #36  
drm, from looking at your pics and reported angle of tilt it looks like my BX23 is well over 20 degrees in the pics I posted. I figured between 15 & 20.

Volfandt
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #37  
Volfandt,

It would sure appear that way from your pics. If you want to know for sure grab a 4' level. Measure the fall in inches over the length of the 4 foot level and divide by 4 to get the pitch (__ /12). Then convert to degrees:

3/12 = 14.0 deg
4/12 = 18.4 deg
5/12 = 22.6 deg
6/12 = 26.5 deg
7/12 = 30.3 deg
8/12 = 33.7 deg

A buddy has a BX and claims it can not only traverse but turn on slopes steeper than I will dare go on sideways. Lots of the locals have them for their claimed low CG and ability on slopes.

Personally I do not like to mow across slopes greater than 15 degrees. But, I have typical western PA land (up/down/and around) and it has to get mowed. Just gives me more seat time. When I rode dirt bikes more frequently it seamed as though hills I would guess to be 30 degrees were straight up. After mowing my place (some slopes are up to 25 degrees) I would like to try those impossible hills again. They would probably look as daunting as ever and I am no longer daring enough to go all out. So I'll stick to tractor for the steep stuff and putting along with my boy for the gentle dirt bike rides.
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #38  
With my rig, I would be very uncomfortable on those slopes. On the other hand, if I just had to roll a tractor, I'd rather do it on that nice lawn than in my woods with sticks, rocks, logs and puckerbushes waiting to add injuries to the insult.
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #39  
I think pucker factor is fine for most of us but the "Worlds Most Extreme Videos" etc, are full of people with impaired pucker factor (usually combined with impaired mental skills too). Of course a tilt meter won't help these folks anyway, they'll always push it one degree more.

One thing I noticed in some video of rollover tests was that when the tractor started to get squirrely, they turned _up_ hill which forced the rollover. I'm not sure if it is natural to react this way but when things start to go wrong (puckering) the proper reaction, I think, is to turn downhill.

I've had my tractor (my first) for about a year now. My land is very hilly and there isn't an inch of it that is smooth. Ruts, dips, stump holes, depressions, rocks, mounds, stumps, bumps, etc abound. Because of the terrain, after a year of experience I can't offer any hard fast rules. It really does come down to being cautious, smart and being aware of the pucker factor. Understanding how speed and implements and implement loads affect the equation is important too.

As someone else mentioned, it always seems to happen suddenly and unexpectedly. Rarely do you hear someone say that they started to pucker a little, pushed it a tiny bit more, puckered a little more and then rolled. Its ususally more like 'next thing I knew I was unpside down.'

The only concrete advice I can give is have a ROPS and wear your seatbelt _always_.
 
   / Can anyone post some pictures of hills #40  
daTeacha said:
With my rig, I would be very uncomfortable on those slopes. On the other hand, if I just had to roll a tractor, I'd rather do it on that nice lawn than in my woods with sticks, rocks, logs and puckerbushes waiting to add injuries to the insult.
Yes, if I had to pick a spot, that would be it.
 

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