Can rear ballast be dangerous?

[Deepdrop]

I think the owners manual for the FEL will give a break down on required ballast. Between the manual for the loader and the one for the tractor my tractor requirements are spelled out fairly well.

I just went through the tractor manual and the loader manual. They both mention using appropriate rear ballast but there is absolutely no guidance as to amount of weight.

 

[k0ua]

I just went through the tractor manual and the loader manual. They both mention using appropriate rear ballast but there is absolutely no guidance as to amount of weight.

Actually it did. It said use appropriate ballast.

Appropriate ballast varies, depending what you are doing on the other end of the tractor, and also how far that appropriate ballast stick out on the 3 point. The reason for using weasel words like appropriate is because they don't know what you are doing, or how your ballast is arranged, and they don't want litigation from you. You are supposed to have a brain and some experience and the knowledge to apply that experience to the situation at hand.

"Well how am I supposed to gain experience when I am just a new tractor owner" you ask? "I don't want to be dead, and I don't want to tear anything up" Well, that is why you come to TBN to ask questions. And we have told you to put between 500 and 600 lbs on your 3 point, and stop wearing your self to a frazzle by manually putting on weights, and either buy or build yourself a ballast box if you don't have anything else that heavy to hang on the 3pt, and most importantly "go on from there". In other words, see how that works, and adjust accordingly per you own experience in your own situation. Obviously if your loader will still pickup enough weight that one or more rear tires come off of the ground or even "get light", than that is not enough. Use what used to be known as "common sense". What that means is think for yourself, and apply your experience to the situation at hand, observe the results, and adjust as appropriately necessary.

 

[Deepdrop]

k0ua, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer some guidance on how to use rear ballast along with some specific examples. They could give general ranges of appropriate weights, discuss the relationship of distance from the 3 point, how it varies with tasks and terrain, etc. They could add a disclaimer to reduce liability. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner to read this and pay heed.
Your assumption that I'm supposed to have a brain AND some experience AND the knowledge to apply that experience is a false assumption for pretty much any first time tractor owner. I really had very little idea of the potential dangers until I had used my tractor, and I read the manual before I used it. In a similar way, reading about how to use a PTO, or 3 point hitch was pretty meaningless until I had actually used them. Until one of my rear wheels lifted up, I had no real appreciation for the risk, just a general knowledge that it could happen. I could have been badly hurt. Unfortunately, many people die each year from rollovers.
I am extremely grateful to the TBN community and I hope that as I gain experience, I'll be able to contribute as well. It's a wonderful resource, filled with very helpful and knowledgable people.
I realize that people get emotional about issues like this and I'm not trying to start an argument here. I just want to say that I disagree with you about the responsibility of the manufacturer and possibly the dealer. I agree with you and the value of the TBN community.

 

[k0ua]

k0ua, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer some guidance on how to use rear ballast along with some specific examples. They could give general ranges of appropriate weights, discuss the relationship of distance from the 3 point, how it varies with tasks and terrain, etc. They could add a disclaimer to reduce liability. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner to read this and pay heed.
Your assumption that I'm supposed to have a brain AND some experience AND the knowledge to apply that experience is a false assumption for pretty much any first time tractor owner. I really had very little idea of the potential dangers until I had used my tractor, and I read the manual before I used it. In a similar way, reading about how to use a PTO, or 3 point hitch was pretty meaningless until I had actually used them. Until one of my rear wheels lifted up, I had no real appreciation for the risk, just a general knowledge that it could happen. I could have been badly hurt. Unfortunately, many people die each year from rollovers.
I am extremely grateful to the TBN community and I hope that as I gain experience, I'll be able to contribute as well. It's a wonderful resource, filled with very helpful and knowledgable people.
I realize that people get emotional about issues like this and I'm not trying to start an argument here. I just want to say that I disagree with you about the responsibility of the manufacturer and possibly the dealer. I agree with you and the value of the TBN community.

Well, as you have noted, there seems to be less and less guidance from the manufactures these days. And the reason is litigation. Think of it like this. If they tell you to put a certain weight on the rear, and pretend this is what you should do for all cases, AND a mishap still occurs, and litigation results, then the manufacture will shrink from doing that in the future. Far better for them to use a weasel word like adequate or applicable or some such.

Long story short. Tractors are very dangerous machines. Just like firearms. Yet manufactures still want to sell them, and consumers still want to buy them. Both types of manufactures, and for that matter most manufactures of almost anything are very litigation aware these days. This is a result of unbridled litigation. So they are going to do all they can to protect themselves. As an example they said in the manual to use appropriate ballast. That covers it all right there. And disagreement is fine by the way.

 

[k0ua]

Here is another example of litigation and assigning blame.

Many users hate some or all of the safety switches commonly known as Operator Presence Switches. And example would be the ubiquitous Kubota seat switch. You get up out of the seat and the fuel is shut off to the injector pump. Some people don't like it for various reasons, Some don't weight enough to keep the switch activated over bumps and jolts, some want to stand up to see their forks tips when loading pallets, etc. BUT they come on here and want experienced people like us to tell them how to defeat these systems. Some of us will and some of us won't tell them how to defeat these systems. But for those of us that do, we are taking a risk of litigation. "Well this guy on TBN told me how to defeat the switch and I stood up to stretch my legs and fell off of the tractor while bush hogging, and the bush hog ran over me, and nearly killed me". I am going to SUE that guy for tell me that. OOOKAAY. See how that can go? Another common one is how to defeat the RIO switch on a John Deere riding lawn mower. Get lots of requests for that one. Then the guy backs over and grinds up his 4 year old kid. Happens. Has even happened in our extended family.

So now do you see why a manufacture might just say something like "use appropriate ballast" instead of giving you a number and telling you exactly how to do it? And you follow those instructions to the letter, and still something happens. Your gonna sue. And a jury is probably gonna be more sympathetic to you if you followed a recipe and still something happened, than if the manufacture in effect left it up to your "common sense" to use the appropriate ballast? What do you think? If you are told to "operate the tractor safely at all times" then I don't think they will be as liable in the eyes of a jury as if they tried to give you examples for all cases of tractor operation and you still managed to kill yourself. Of course all of this is just my opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours if it differs.

So operate your very dangerous machine as safely as you can, make an attempt to learn from each mistake, and if you survive, you can go on to help others to survive. Or not.

By the way, do you own any firearms? And if so, how did you learn to operate those very dangerous machines safely? Same goes for pickup trucks.

 

[oosik]

I can see the manufacturers putting ballast graphs in their FEL manual. Just like the lift graphs in my FEL OP manual. I wonder - how many new tractor owner read & understand the lift graphs in their FEL OP manual. That's probably about the same number who would read/understand ballast graphs.

There are just too many variables to consider - beyond raw weight at the end of your 3-point arms.

Too many would take such a graph as the gospel and possibly get in serious trouble.

 

[k0ua]

Too many would take such a graph as the gospel and possibly get in serious trouble.

Yep, there you go. That is the crux of the matter isn't it?

 

[oosik]

And - like we all know - if they are fortunate enough to survive - gonna be a big law suit.

 

[4570Man]

I think backflip could still happen. If tires dig in and top link is still pulling tractor backwards, and 3 point hitch has no down force so it won’t act like wheelie bars, there’s nothing stopping tractor from flipping over.

The 3 point hitch doesn’t have any down force but it has an upward travel limit. The blade has hit the upward travel limits way before a rollover angle has happened.

 

[oosik]

I spent a whole lot of time - thinking, reading, mumbling on rear ballast for my new Kubota M6040 in 2009. I know +/- 50# how much I can lift with my grapple. I know how high I can lift with how much weight - safely. What I don't know is those environmental condition which can instantly modify safe conditions.

I subscribe to the gospel - go low, go slow. I have "knuckle drag marks" all over the 80 acres where I've moved large rock and hunks to pine trunk.