Can we talk about Concrete?

   / Can we talk about Concrete? #1  

woodlandfarms

Super Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
6,118
Location
Los Angeles / SW Washington
Tractor
PowerTrac 1850, Kubota RTV x900
Yeah, I know we can.....

Here is the deal, I am about to go out to bid for concrete for my new shop. Of all the subjects I know the least amount about in terms of construction it is concrete and Youtube, while OK, is not great...

So the particulars. Right now I am aiming to just concrete the floor of the shop, no pad (unless my wallet thickens in the interum). So 45X72 is the floor size. We are in Mild Temperature, so probably not going to do any radiant (still undecided on this) and not sure if I am putting insulation under. It was suggested by the County Permit office, but not required.

I have no plans of heavy machinery but I would like to maybe buy an auto lift one day. So my plan was a 4" floor, and an area 6 inches thick around the spot I would put a future lift.

As for the floor itself, I am mulling over a central drain. I am also mulling over an in floor vacuum system for the wood shop. I will have a bathroom with a shower, as well as a clothes washer and sink so there will need to be drains for that. I do plan on putting in floor electric in the wood shop so I can hook up a saw in the center of the room...

So what do I need to ask guys, I kinda understand PSI, I kinda understand re-bar, I kinda understand fibre.

I know there are a lot of opinions, so I guess I can't wait to hear them.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #2  
Be REAL clear in writing with the expectations of floor finish and flatness with your selected contractor. Look at previous jobs. Are they capable of replacing the concrete if your not happy ? Also makes sure you expecting what can be provided.

3500 psi concrete.
Little water added at the job site as possible.
Rebar installed. (The fiber stuff does not replace rebar)
Saw cuts at 1/4 of the thickness of the concrete so one inch deep for you. (Every load of concrete comes with a free set of cracks. The saw cuts help put the cracks where you want them and also help prevent the edges of the cracks from chipping and flaking out)
Vapor membrane such as plastic under the concrete.

The building already built ? If not then often times a 2 x 2 board is fastened to the top inside edge of the forms. This provides a lip for the metal siding to set in later. Helps with mice and what not later.
The foam under the slab is a great idea and not real expensive. Make sure its closed cell. Helps with shop temperatures later on in summer and winter.
Restroom ? Easy to run a drain line for the commode or sink and any needed water lines now. Use if needed at a later date. And the pipe is cheap. If you keep them near the edge of the slab then they are out of the way. 3 or 4 inch pipe can be ran as conduit for a pair of feature water lines also.
Every one has a budget. You can still put the lines in for radiant heating before you pour but do not have to use them right now. Gives you options for later on. Be careful of saw cutting depths or drilling or nailing into the concrete .........best to have a layout planed if interior walls are a possibility for later. Post for the lift for or bathroom walls for example.
Recessed or sloping edge where any drive through doors are going to be. Helps keep the wind blown rain out.

Sealers for on top of the concrete for easy cleaning later. Also helps with cracking issues. This needs decided on before the concrete job is started. Some types interfere with the application of later products. A good box store example.

Best Silane/Siloxane Concrete Sealers - Concrete Sealer Reviews

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Foundat...asonry-Water-Repellent-SX5000WB1GAL/205719732

STAY OFF the slab until it is cured ! You waited this long and spent a lot of money so be patient. No need to crack it with equipment driving and parking inside.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #3  
I have no plans of heavy machinery but I would like to maybe buy an auto lift one day. So my plan was a 4" floor, and an area 6 inches thick around the spot I would put a future lift.
2 post or 4 post? Obviously check the mfgr's requirements, 6" may not be enough for some and they may have rebar requirements as well.
As for the floor itself, I am mulling over a central drain. I am also mulling over an in floor vacuum system for the wood shop. I will have a bathroom with a shower, as well as a clothes washer and sink so there will need to be drains for that. I do plan on putting in floor electric in the wood shop so I can hook up a saw in the center of the room...
There are lots of pros & cons to what you want to do. First, is the contractor capable of doing this? That will probably be the biggest hurdle. Are you going with a trench type or buried? Trench type will allow you to access the vacuum pipes, electric lines, air lines etc. But, as much planning as you do, the outlets will not be where you want them years down the road. I went to overhead lines, but the drops got in the way from time to time, but they were movable. The bathroom is straight forward and I assume is separate from the rest of the drain systems (otherwise, you'll have to deal with venting sewer gas)
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #4  
Concrete is a very basic material that has been around for a long time. If you stick with the basics, it's pretty hard to go wrong. There are three main ingredients that go into making concrete. Rock, sand and Portland Cement. The cement is the glue that holds it all together once you add water. The water creates a chemical reaction with the cement and the way I understand it, the amount that is needed, never actually leaves the concrete, it's converted into the concrete.

The biggest issue with pouring concrete is adding too much water. There is the ideal amount, and then there is extra. You will never have a foundation or pad poured with just the ideal amount, it will always have too much water. There is a slump test that you do to see how much is too much with water. Basically, you build a sand castle. Fill a small gallon or half gallon bucket with the mix and then try to make a sand castle. How well it stands on it's own tells you what your slump is. The only time you really need to do this is to win an argument with your contractor. Let him know before the pour starts that you will be there with your bucket and if you think he's adding too much water to the mix, that you will test it.

There are two problems with adding too much water. First, it lowers the PSI of the finished concrete. Second, and more common, it creates cracks.

There are several reasons that concrete cracks. First is when curing. The excess amount of water creates mass. When that water evaporates, the concrete still wants to fill the same amount of area, but there is now less mass, so it cracks. The more water you have in your pour, the bigger the cracks. Concrete is also affected by temperature and will swell and contract as the day heats up and cools off. This is why concrete roads are so hard to do because you have to all for expansion of the concrete so it doesn't crack. When pouring a house, you always do the living areas separate from the outside areas due to this movement. Porches and in some places, garages are done the next day or later in the build. Never on the same day. Settling from soil not compacted properly gets the most blame for cracking, but it's actually very rare. Just about every house out there with a concrete slab has a void under it somewhere. The concrete can easily support what's above it most of the time and nobody is aware of the issue. Poor roof framing is usually the cause of what most people call foundation issues. The weight of the house is on the footings, and it's extremely rare to have a footing move due to improper compaction. When it does happen, it's obvious because the concrete will break and be forced down or at an angle. Water cracks remain flat and smooth with the rest of the surface.

Rebar on a flat pad is there to hold the concrete together when it cracks. Most cracks are hairline that are impossible to see. To be effective, the rebar needs to be inside the concrete. Ideally, it has the most strength at the one third point up from the ground, but in real world work, just get it in the middle and you're fine. To do this, you HAVE to use chairs. One of the most common lies told is that they will lift it as they spread the concrete and that it will remain in the middle while they walk over it spreading the concrete. This is 100% impossible to do and where I walk away from hiring a contractor. If I'm told this, I will not use that person or company.

Wire should never be used on a big pad. It's find for sidewalks since you don't have to walk on it when you pour it. You can even pull up the wire and not put it on chairs for sidewalks, but eve if you use chairs, you cannot walk on wire and expect it to end up in the middle of the pad. It's pure junk and another reason to not hire a contractor that tells you that they will use it instead of rebar.

Fiber is a nice bonus to concrete that is proven to reduce cracking and add some strength to a pad. I know that some people will replace it for rebar, but I feel that this is a bad idea. In areas of the country that have severe weather, earthquakes and expansive soils, this is not allowed. To deal with bad conditions, more rebar is required!!! Rebar is the only thing that has a proven track record of success.

Most of the time 3/8's rebar, also called number 3, is used at 24 inches for the pad and then 1/2 inch rebar, also called number 4, is used in the footings. In some areas the size of the rebar is much larger to gain more strength, and sometimes it's installed closer together too. I personally like it at 18 inches for my projects. It's a small increase in money, but worth it in my opinion.

To increase the strength of your concrete, you can have them increase the amount of Portland Cement to the mix. I forget the actual numbers, but off the top of my head, it's something like 2,500 psi is the standard mix, and then if you add another sack to the mix, it goes up 500psi This adds to the cost, which isn't a huge increase, but around here, it's rarely done because there really isn't any need for it.

Making your pad thicker also increases the strength, but I don't know the specifics of what all is achieved for a pad. In a footing, it's done by increasing the overall mass to such a point that it can support a greater load, like the walls, or a load bearing beam. Since the weight is concentrated at those points, the type of soil you have is also very important to know how big to make the footing. For a load bearing post, here in East Texas, on red clay, you make it 24 inches square and deep.

Plastic doesn't hurt anything, but most of the time, it's doesn't accomplish anything either. Usually when it's done, it's because a client read online how important it is, so it's used. For my own projects, I don't use it. I also do not believe the moisture comes out of the ground and through the slab to create moisture, which I understand makes me a minority on here based on the discussions that I've been involved with. So far, nobody has changed my mind.

Cutting the concrete weakens it where it's cut, allowing it to crack easier in a place that you have decided that you want your cracks. Some people like the look of it, I personally don't like it and wont do it.

The crew that you hire to do your pad will install the forms, dig the footings and install the rebar. Your General Contractor will coordinate with your electrician and plumber so they can install their lines after the forms are done, and before the rebar is installed. If you are acting as the GC, then you need to get everyone on board with what they are going to be doing. Or are you going to install the utilities yourself? If so, that's where all the detailed planning and measuring comes into play and probably another topic to go into since there are some things to take into consideration that need to be done before the concrete is poured.

Try to pour on days that are above 50 degrees. If you do it colder, they have to add chemicals that cost more money and may affect the strength and overall finish.

Be sure to have an easy path and lots of open space for the cement trucks. They turn like buses and they are super heavy. The closer you can get the truck to the pad, and the more places that they have to pour from, the faster it will go, and that's really important since the concrete is getting harder every minute.

Once the pour starts, your main job is to make sure that they do not add more water to the mix. Otherwise, stay out of their way and take some pictures of what they are doing. If there is too much water, it's a lot easier to sue them if you have pictures that show it.

Water is your enemy with concrete. They will add more then you want, you will not be able to stop them, all you can do is keep it to a minimum and ignore their complaining on how hard it is to spread without adding more water to make it like soup. Every crack that happens in the slab after the pour will be from too much water. If there is any soil issues, that will take years to show up.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #5  
Plastic doesn't hurt anything, but most of the time, it's doesn't accomplish anything either. Usually when it's done, it's because a client read online how important it is, so it's used. For my own projects, I don't use it. I also do not believe the moisture comes out of the ground and through the slab to create moisture, which I understand makes me a minority on here based on the discussions that I've been involved with. So far, nobody has changed my mind.
.
The only reason to use plastic underneath a thin slab (4-6" thick) is so that the dirt does not contribute/remove moisture from the concrete while curing. As for sweating, etc that the plastic is supposed to reduce, I have to agree, I don't think moisture from the soil will have any effect on concrete either with or without plastic.
A properly wetted (no standing water) soil prior to concrete placement will work just as well as plastic wrap.

As for the crew adding water, it may be worth the price of rental to pay for a Cone Slump test apparatus(most rental places have them) so you can scientifically verify that your concrete is at the specified slump. Specify a 4-6" slump in your bid. Don't let them add water prior to slumping each load. You can read about how to slump concrete via any internet search of ACI 318. For you own personal use, you don't need an ACI concrete testing certification to do this. A good concrete guy can just about look at the concrete coming down the chute and get within 1/2" of the slump. Remember the front 1/3 of the load will be drier than the middle and the last 1/3 will always have more slump. Standard practice is to dump about 1/3 of the load before testing for "average" slump.

The best way to keep the concrete crew from adding water is to put in their contract that any excess slump above 6" will be rejected and replaced at the cost to the contractor. This usually keeps them away from the water addition till the slump test is completed. You could also put slumping of concrete to be by contractor (witnessed by yourself)> This should be minimal cost or no additional cost to you but will be invaluable in getting quality concrete.

For a slab that will have equipment parking on it, I would recommend a 6" slab of not less than 3000 PSI concrete over a 2500 PSI mix. The cost is not that great a difference.

As for your proposed lift, you need to research that thru your proposed lift mfg. to determine what they require prior to setting up your slab design. 6" may be sufficient but it may also be insufficient: only way to be sure is to ask the manufacturer that you plan to use. I am sure a 2 post lift will require more concrete than a 4 post lift.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #6  
Your best bet is to find a good contractor. He/she can walk you through what works and what doesn’t in your area. You can spec the “perfect” items for your build but construction is 90% people. Good execution of average product will ***** bad execution of the best product every day of the week!

I don’t personally think running your dust extraction in the floor is a good idea. To me it’s a maintenance item that needs to be accessible. Plus gravity isn’t your friend if it’s underground.

Some areas allow floor drains, some don’t. If you have the fall outside, and you have a contractor who can pull it off properly (probably not low bid!) it works nicely.

Proper Rebar is worth the money....you don’t get a second chance.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #7  
For your lift you will need a certain thickness of concrete for the load applied. Rebar does little to help for shear in a thin slab and is useful mainly for expansive soil. Fiber works better to control cracks
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #8  
All good points, Gary Fowler. Very good advice.

As for a layer of plastic under the concrete, without it, moisture from the ground will eventually make it's way up through the concrete and add moisture to an enclosed building unless a 5,000# mix is used. Water can not penetrate it. But I have never seen a 5,000# mix used for a slab accept in industrial applications.
 
Last edited:
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #9  
Eddie, all due respect, but you live in Texas. In colder and wetter parts of the world, with different soils, plastic is absolutely required underneath the slab. Plenty of reading easily accessible with a basic google search if you are interested. Just because you don't use it, and don't see wet-looking slabs, doesn't mean it doesn't do anything. Plus, it only costs $50-100 and goes down in 30 minutes or less. I see no reason not to use it.

Personally I would go with 4000psi crete. It's not that much more expensive. 2500 psi crete is garbage meant only for sidewalks, rat walls and the like. Fibers are also inexpensive, so why not add them. Rebar on 1' to 2' centers - Supported on chairs - don't let the contractor tell you they will lift it up.

Insulation under the slab is also always a good idea.

2-post lift manufacturers almost all say that 4"+ of 4000psi concrete is sufficient. Most people go way overboard with lift prep, but, if you're gonna hang a 10,000 lb vehicle in the air, might as well. Just don't make small boxes of deeper concrete with sharp edges - you can induce cracking and actually end up with weaker lift support. A gradual ramp to thicker concrete is best, or make a big area.

You only get one shot (ideally) at concrete, so study up and do ALL the prep! Good luck.
 
   / Can we talk about Concrete? #10  
Why are you thinking you'll need a central floor drain? Particularly if you have electric and a vacuum system in the floor, you're not likely to be hosing it down.
 
 
Top