Carryall & 3pt geometry question

[skid mark]

Howdy all-

Just recently found this site - it's a good'un!

I've been planning to build a 3pt-mount hay fork, but upon reading these forums, found several notes with high praise for a more generic attachment - a carryall!

Does anybody use a carryall to move large round bales? Any pictures, suggestions, etc would be appreciated.

Also, I have a question about 3pt hitch geometry. My question deals with the placement of the top link and how that affects the angle of the attachment as the 3pt is raised.

Ideally, when lifting a round bale when using a carryall, it should tilt back some as it is lifted. But the carryall is being used as a small platform/bed, it may be desirable to have it remain level as it is lifted.

I'm guessing that the height of the top link mount on the carryall will affect this. What is the correct height for the top link attachment to maintain a level position when raised?

Would a shorter attachment point cause the carryall to tilt back when raised?

I'm thinking it would be nice to be able to chose between a couple positions when hooking up the top link.

Any specs on what height to use would be appreciated.

Mark

ps: Attached is a picture of my "new" tractor - a CASE 385.

 

[jdrotert]

Mark,
I pondered this question when I made a 3PH receiver hitch. Make sure the distance and offset of the pins/holes is the same on the tractor. Also make sure the top link is adjusted out the same length as your lift arms.
John

 

[gws]

Why not just use a 3ft spear to move round bales?

 

[Bird]

Had occasion to load a few hundred round 5' x 5' bales of hay onto 16' trailers (3 bales per trailer) about 5 years ago using a 3-point hitch "carryall" on a 50hp White tractor, but it belonged to someone else; never really thought much about it, but the bales (and carryall) stayed pretty level all the time.

 

[MrP]

Phantom,

I have a carry all. It is made of "L" shaped bar stock. Mine would not work to carry a large round bale (no spiking ability). It is used as a platform.

If you shorten the top link, it does indeed lean the platform back.

I agree that a 3pt bale spear is probably the better way to go.

 

[SteveV]

The other responses delt with the hay spear, I'll take a swing at the goemetry part. The 3ph arms move in arcs with the tractor end being fixed. To obtain the tilt back function the toplink would have to reach the top of its arc before the lift arms, to obtain the tilt back function. The toplink would be very vertical in the up position, hence its implement end would be higher than normal. See the KK pin thread, that is exactly what they're trying to do, raise the tail wheel. So, the best way to build is to amble out to your favorite implement with a tape measure and work from there. SteveV

 

[bubenberg]

rather than reinventing the wheel look at this site and than make your necessary conversions to your hay spear
http://www.cadplans.com/products.htm

good luck

 

[JRP]

Consider a hydraulic top link. I love mine and it puts the implement at any angle with my finger tips.

I'm building a forklift attachment right now for use as a hay loader, carryall, forklift (hydraulic top link critical for this) and also to mount a man basket. Later I'll adapt the forks to a FEL.

I think you will find the top link is about 18" above the bottom lift pins. There is an ANSI specification for proper 3pt connection.

JRPoux
JRPoux.

 

[skid mark]

A hydraulic top link! I didn't know there was such a thing! That sounds like the hot ticket!

I do know that my new tractor has a couple of hydraulic connectors on the rear end. But I don't know if it has the necessary controls to control the pressure to those lines.

Would a hydraulic top link come with the proper fittings to allow it to plug right into my tractor? If my tractor does have the proper controls, what would they be called? Off hand, I don't think that it does. It has a lever to raise/lower the lift arms, one for draft control, one to regulate the speed of lifting/lowering... Hey, now that I think of it, there was a "mystery lever" down low that wasn't labeled. I'll look and see if I can tell what it does. If my tractor came with these hydraulic fittings, would you expect that it has the control(s) to control a hydraulic top link?

Assuming that the hydraulic top link has connectors to plug right into my tractor, how does that work? It is like the quick connect fittings on an air compressor? Is there any fluid loss when you connect/disconnect? Any concerns about introducing air or contaminants into the system?

Thanks for everybody's ideas. Oh yeah, I have thought about also making a hay fork/spear and may do that one of these days. The only downside of that attachment is that it is only good for that one task. I'd likely have to attach and remove it every time I wanted to put out a round bale. That amount of work is roughly equal to the amount of work to roll a round bale onto a fork/carryall. I'm thinking that since a carryall is a much better "general use" attachment, I might be able to leave it on the tractor more often.

Thanks everybody for all the info and sorry for all the dumb questions. My last tractor (Ford 9N) was much simpler to use - it had a steering wheel and a single lever for the lift, and it only worked occasionally! And JRPOUX, I'd love to see pictures, etc of your hay loader/carryall and info on the hydraulic top link!

Best,

Mark

 

[patrickg]

Mark, I came in late but like all the advice you got so far. If I were going to build I would at least consider a carryall platform with square tube or pipe as the horizontal frame members that run fore and aft where a platform would be placed. Then I would make a couple spears of the next size smaller/telescoping pipe/sq tube to insert in those fore and aft members to convert the carryall to a round bale hauler on demand. You might find the dinensions compatible with storing the spears collapsed inside their carrier. Pins would hold them in the collapsed, intermediate, or extended position.

In general it seems hydraulic top links are NOT plugged into your hydraulic remotes but operate from a hydraulic lever mounted with yoiur other hydraulic controls. There should be room to add it even if the tractor maker didn't make provisions. A better use for a hydraulic remote would be to raise/lower hydraulic scarifiers on a box blade while retaining top lift adjustability. You want both not one or the other. I have a hydraulic raised (gravity lowered) PTO driven 3PH mounted cement mixer that uses the remote, likewise the post holl auger. Don't "use up" your rremote for hydraulic top lift, you would most likely not be happy in the long run. Many folks have more than one hydraulic remote, I have only the one but I also have hydraulic tilt to let the lower 3PH arms raise and lower unequally.
Frequently you see these refered to as TnT (Top 'n' Tilt) and are a very worthwile addition as they give you a lot of precise control over the attitude of your implements usig your fingertips withoug getting down off of the tractor and making repetitive mechanical adjustments. I was very fortunate to have had this topic broached in my presence here on TBN so I knew to order my tractor with TnT. Now that I have used it a few hundred hours I can just barely imagine how tremendously awkward and non productive it must be to do certain operations with manual top and tilt. Worse than hand cranking your car to start it every time, I think.

O_O_P_S sorry JRPOUX, I didn't read to the bottom of Mark's post before starting this answer. Hope I didn't steal your thunder, I was just imagineering (imagining - engineering). If you have been there done that, please share.

Patrick

 

[bubenberg]

i hope you will poste some pictures ...good luck

 

[JRP]

I'll take pictures tomorrow.

Patrick is right about not wanting to use the remote for the hydraulic top link all the time. I use it when I want top link control, such as with a box blade. I take it off sometimes, when mowing or sometimes if I'm using a sprayer. If you don't throw away your standard top link you can use it when you need the remote for something elase. Swapping takes about a minute.

The top link is a converted cylinder. New cost for the cylindeer was $94. I welded a nut with rod end to the cylindr rod, and built an adapter for the cylinder end.

The hydraulic connections consisted of two $12 3' hoses and two $6 QD fitting that fit my remote ports.

Some people can spend $500 or more on top n tilt. My top link cost about $150 and can later be used with a TNT valve.

Before you build a carry all, check the replies to my post
POST YOUR PICTURES OF FORKS? in this build it yourself forum. I think forks give the best of bale handling, carry all, fork lift, and can easily be adapted for brush use or a rapple.

You have a lot to learn but with reading these posts it will come quickly. Except one, there are almost no books about this stuff. You found the best place to start.

Pictures to come

JRPoux

 

[JRP]

A picture of a hydraulic top link. If someone really wants to build one I can take it off and take close up pictures of the ends.

 

[jdrotert]

PLEASE take pics of the ends!!

 

[JRP]

Here is a pic. To make the top link:

1. Get a new cylinder. I think mine might be 3" bore x 8" stroke. I have a bigger tractor M6800 so you might want a 2 1/2 or 2" cylinder.

2. Unscrew and discard the end off the cylinder rod. Take the cylinder to a good nut and bolt house and order a nut to fit the rod. Weld a 7/8" (cat I) spherical rod end to the nut. Weld the nut to the rod. If you don't weld it, it will loosen.

3. Remove the pin from the cylinder end. Fit (cut with a torch and drill) a piece of thick plate such that when this pin is reinstalled, the plate will only have slight clearance between the plate and the contact points on the cylinder. The force on the cylinder ends must be exactly in line with the centerline of the cylinder bore, so you don't want the plate to flop up and down. I cut a plywood pattern such that with a hole in the pattern that fits the pin, It just touched the cylinder end when the pin is installed. Transfer the pattern shape to the plate.

4. Weld another rod end to the adapter plate.

5. Once you are happy with the rod movement compared to the remote lever movement, mark the hose ends and coupler ends with colored tie wraps. Mine are red and blue. When I p[lug in my hoses color coded, the cylinder always works the same.

6. With hydraulic top link installed, lift the attachment to highest and lowest position and with cylinder in and out to make sure at no place does the cylinder or rod end hit the implement frame. I found today that mine does, so it will need a grinder adjustment.

Good luck and enjoy

JRPoux

 

[JRP]

I'm not sure 7/8 is the right size. Measure your top link pin size.

 

[JRP]

Wrong pic. Try this one:

 

[markcg2000]

Here's a picture of mine. I unscrewed the rod end then welded the ball to it. Couldn't take the other end off, so i just welded the ball to the pin, then welded the pin to the cylinder to prevent it from flopping around. I ran my hoses to the FEL valve that came with my tractor ( I didn't get an FEL - yeah, I know, how stupid could I get? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif). Because I didn't need to buy the valve, this set-up ran me a little under $150.

This works really well. My only problem was the weld was good enough, so I have to have my neighbor weld it... he's practically a pro at welding.

 

[hosejockey2002]

Do both ends need to be a swivel? I've seen some commercially made hydraulic top links that have one end a standard pin through a clevis and the other end a swivel ball. I'm thinking of making mine that way.

 

[HalseyGreen]

Both ends need to swivel, because when you tilt the attachment you get some strange angles out of your top link in both the hortizonal and verticle planes. Also be sure that the tractor end has sufficeint clearance of the cylinder from the top link attachment point. I missed this measurement and ripped the ball out of its socket when I attempted a strange tilt of box blade when I also had the tilt at an extreme angle. T-N-T is greatest thing since FEL.